The 420-year-search for Shakespeare's lost play

New evidence uncovered by the Literary expert and Shakespeare 'sleuth' Professor Matthew Steggle, has upended the long established narrative that William Shakespeare left his wife Anne Hathaway behind in Stratford for a career in London. It was long thought the couple had a disastrous marriage. Professor Steggle had decrypted a fragment of a letter to the 'Good Mrs Shakespeare' which suggests the couple had lived together on Trinity Lane in London. Is is time for a rethink of how 'Mrs Shakespeare' is written about? Professor Steggle has been speaking to France 24’s Gavin Lee.
Good Mrs Shakespeare: Scholar deciphers letter to Anne Hathaway | 10:13
FRANCE 24 English | 3.33M subscribers | 17,656 views | April 27, 2025

--> YouTube-Generated Transcript <--
0:00 · now the Shakespeare sleuth the man
0:02 · behind this new analysis is Matthew
0:03 · Stegler professor of early modern
0:06 · English literature at the University of
0:07 · Bristol and he joins us on the program
0:09 · Matthew great to talk to you this Sunday
0:12 · evening let's start very glad to be here
0:14 · the fragment of this letter Matthew has
0:16 · been around for almost 30 years tell us
0:19 · how it was first discovered and how did
0:21 · you get involved in finally deciphering
0:23 · it
0:25 · it was first noticed in
0:27 · 1978 by uh a librarian who was
0:30 · cataloging a book which had been
0:32 · acquired by Heraford Cathedral Library
0:35 · now binders in the 17th century would
0:37 · often when they were making a book use
0:39 · bits of waste paper in the binding to
0:42 · pat out the binding because paper was
0:44 · quite expensive so you would sometimes
0:46 · get letters or book sellers accounts or
0:48 · whatever reused as waste paper it's a
0:51 · kind of recycling and in this case
0:53 · whoever bound this book back in the 17th
0:55 · century uh happened to use a couple of
0:58 · strips of letter one of which does have
1:00 · this alarming reference to Mrs
1:02 · shakespeare on and so that's that's how
1:05 · it's been preserved is because it's sort
1:06 · of been thrown away once if you see what
1:08 · I mean yeah so it was kind of wedged
1:10 · into this uh book in Heraford Cathedral
1:13 · Library we don't know who uh the
1:16 · fragment of this letter the author of
1:18 · this letter is but we know it's about a
1:19 · boy called John Buts whose father had
1:22 · died it says that William Shakespeare
1:23 · was holding money on trust for John i
1:25 · think that's right but it's entitled to
1:27 · the good Mrs shakespeare and she's being
1:29 · asked to pay what Shakespeare owed
1:33 · that's right so um who whoever Yeah so
1:36 · Mrs shakespeare is being addressed
1:38 · saying "Please pay up the money your
1:40 · husband is not is not
1:43 · um your your husband does not pay to
1:45 · this orphan and the question is does is
1:47 · that Mr shakespeare are Mr shakespeare
1:49 · and that that's the thing that that this
1:51 · research has really tried to nail down
1:53 · and the key link here is that you've
1:55 · also established where this boy John
1:57 · Buts lived he was close to the theater
1:59 · this is nearby Shortage i think it's now
2:01 · Shortage High Street and it you it was
2:04 · used by the same stretch by the company
2:07 · that Shakespeare wrote and acted for the
2:09 · Lord Chamberlain's men so that kind of
2:10 · connects the dots a little more too does
2:12 · it
2:16 · that's right and actually scholars have
2:18 · been searching for centuries for the ref
2:20 · the records of London looking for
2:21 · references to people called Shakespeare
2:23 · there so you can characterize them quite
2:25 · well and this is one that doesn't fit
2:27 · with any of the other known
2:28 · Shakespearees at the period so so that
2:30 · that's the argument for it being William
2:32 · yeah and so if we start to try to
2:35 · triangulate out from this fragment we've
2:38 · talked about John Bert we've talked
2:39 · about the good Mrs shakespeare the
2:41 · reason it might also be the fragment in
2:43 · this particular book and if you could
2:45 · explain essentially is because the book
2:46 · itself was published by Shakespeare's
2:49 · neighbor a man called Richard Field
2:53 · that's right uh Shakespeare's uh
2:55 · favorite printer who was a probably a
2:57 · school friend
2:59 · from Stratford
3:02 · um comes to and among his printings he
3:04 · prints the first editions of Venus and
3:06 · Adonis um the rape Shakespeare's poems
3:09 · um and it's a book printed by him but
3:11 · whoever is binding it was binding at the
3:13 · point that they had a Shakespeare letter
3:14 · on hand so so an association between
3:18 · Richardfield and the Shakespearees is is
3:20 · is one of one of the reasons that you
3:22 · think yeah this is likely to be our Mr
3:24 · shakespeare rather than any of those
3:26 · other possible candidates so that's how
3:28 · we've got there so far Matthew it's
3:30 · incredible sleuth work from you there
3:32 · are still though many assumptions and
3:33 · leaps that have to be made about so
3:35 · little being known about Anne and
3:37 · Williams relationship reading Jermaine
3:40 · Greer's Shakespeare's wife she often
3:41 · comes off very badly doesn't she anna
3:43 · the way it seems uh it's often given
3:45 · more away don't you think about the
3:47 · writer of the opinion rather than being
3:49 · based on facts and I want to quote to
3:50 · you a couple of things so you've got the
3:52 · 19th century poet Thomas Moore friend of
3:54 · Lord Byron says this of Shakespeare in
3:56 · the 1800s he says quote "Among the very
3:59 · few facts of life that have been
4:01 · transmitted to us about Shakespeare
4:03 · there is none more clearly proved than
4:05 · unhappiness of his marriage." Then in
4:07 · the late '9s literary critic Shakespeare
4:09 · biographer Anthony Holden writes this it
4:12 · is hard to believe such an ambitious
4:14 · young dreamer always aware that the
4:16 · world was elsewhere beyond Stratford was
4:18 · so enamored to a homaly wench 8 years
4:21 · his senior and then there's this too
4:24 · Hollywood Shakespeare in love when
4:25 · William appears to be psychologically
4:27 · damaged by the relationship let's take a
4:29 · look wench wench is quite a strong word
4:31 · yeah let's take a look at this
4:36 · you have a wife children
4:41 · I
4:44 · I was a lad of 18 and Haway was a woman
4:46 · half as old again a woman of property
4:49 · she had a cottage one day she was 3
4:52 · months gone with child sir and your
4:54 · relations on my mother's side the arans
4:58 · no your marriage bed 4 years and 100
5:01 · miles away in
5:03 · Stratford a cold bed too since the twins
5:06 · were
5:06 · born banishment was a blessing so now
5:10 · you are free to love you cannot love nor
5:12 · write it
5:14 · matthew of course we will never know uh
5:16 · having found this what is your personal
5:18 · assessment of their relationship
5:24 · the really interesting thing about this
5:26 · bit of paper assuming that it is William
5:28 · and Anne is that it's the first piece of
5:30 · paper that puts her in London and those
5:33 · guys quoted one of the the central
5:36 · blanks of of of their argument was the
5:38 · no piece of paper which ever shows that
5:40 · she lived with her husband in London so
5:42 · this is the first exception really this
5:43 · is the the first sort of um sort of
5:47 · in the wall on that and I mean I
5:50 · mean you mentioned Jermaine Greer
5:51 · Jermaine Greer's fabulous book
5:52 · suggesting that she's a more figure
5:55 · she's not this kind of wench uh in the
5:57 · countryside i think this certainly
5:58 · speaks to that agenda and I know other
6:00 · scholars are doing stuff on that at the
6:02 · moment so
6:04 · so as you say I really think about
6:06 · halfway what's the response been like to
6:09 · you this week Matthew has there been
6:11 · outrage from Bolattors more used to the
6:14 · homely and wanted wife narrative or been
6:16 · some delight from you know opening up a
6:18 · new intrigue about her and their
6:20 · relationship
6:26 · i think everybody who is interested in
6:28 · the field is certainly interested i mean
6:30 · there's a
6:33 · um in some ways it's good that it's not
6:35 · it's not been sort of universally
6:37 · accepted or universally rejected people
6:39 · are going to think about it people are
6:40 · going to check check the evidence um
6:42 · maybe use it as a springboard for
6:44 · further research so it's part of an
6:45 · ongoing conversation yeah tell me about
6:48 · what's um next for you are you in the
6:51 · midst of working on something because
6:52 · I'm also intrigued as to you know we're
6:54 · kind of chinking away at bits of new
6:56 · information is there thought to be much
6:58 · left to discover
7:03 · well I mean this is I got into this
7:05 · because I was writing a biography of
7:07 · Shakespeare so so that's still ongoing
7:10 · um and I mean there certainly is more to
7:12 · discover there there are you know um
7:15 · famously a couple of lost plays that
7:17 · Shakespeare wrote which are still not
7:19 · very well understood it would be lovely
7:21 · to think one could find one of them
7:24 · although that's probably best praying
7:26 · for but there's certainly more to be
7:28 · found out with with the kind of new
7:30 · new tools that we have now i just wonder
7:34 · how many other bits of information you
7:36 · know this is just incredible and you
7:38 · think the reality is this has been lying
7:39 · around since 1978 since it was
7:42 · discovered and it's taken this time to
7:44 · decipher and maybe this opens up to
7:46 · other potential sleuths but is there
7:48 · other information that could be related
7:49 · to Shakespeare that still needs to be be
7:52 · defined i mean there are I guess there
7:53 · are lots of things particularly about
7:54 · Anne Hatherway where we don't really
7:56 · know her exact age i think I'm right to
7:58 · say for example that it was a a brass
8:00 · plaque that's put up later by
8:02 · Shakespeare's grave that seems to
8:03 · suggest that she was 8 years older but
8:05 · we don't really know if she was indeed
8:07 · older
8:10 · that's right and actually it's funny you
8:12 · should mention that particular item
8:13 · because um a colleague of mine named
8:15 · Katherine Shy is is working on that
8:17 · plaque at the moment and some of the
8:18 · interesting mysteries about about it so
8:21 · I think there will be more discoveries
8:22 · to come on on precisely that that score
8:25 · and that's a great example as well
8:27 · there's a thing that one piece of paper
8:29 · if we could find another another
8:30 · document we might be able to nail down
8:33 · yeah is it hard to put your head over
8:35 · the parapit in a Shakespearean community
8:37 · that uh often likes to have one way of
8:40 · looking at things and a house built
8:41 · sometimes of of paper straws
8:46 · to an extent to an extent but I I mean
8:49 · I'm a fan of the Shakespeare community
8:50 · they are very very um on my whole it's a
8:54 · it's a broad church it's very Yeah i
8:55 · mean and and as I say we're united by an
8:58 · interest in the works and the question
9:01 · of of of the guy who wrote them and but
9:03 · but also by the works themselves because
9:05 · they're the things that really have got
9:06 · pe people into him and and and make them
9:10 · interested in him yeah and finally where
9:12 · did your love of Shakespeare come from
9:14 · Professor
9:20 · i found him in the library i'm sorry
9:22 · this is going to sound very sad but I uh
9:25 · came across a copy of Shakespeare's
9:26 · works um uh in a library and thought
9:29 · this looks good and then I went to a
9:31 · secondhand bookshop and must have been
9:33 · about 11 or 12 i bought a couple of the
9:35 · plays which sounded cool like Hamlet and
9:38 · McBTH and and that for me was the
9:40 · routine through um plays but the nice
9:43 · thing is everybody has a different way
9:44 · in for some it's seeing a film of of of
9:48 · a production um for a lot it's Romeo
9:51 · plus Juliet that that that that film for
9:53 · instance for some it's going to the
9:54 · theater and seeing it live so everyone's
9:56 · got their own story of engagement with
9:58 · it
10:00 · well time has come to a stop professor I
10:02 · can no other answer but make but thanks
10:04 · thanks and ever thanks professor Matthew
10:06 · Stegel thank you so much for speaking to
10:08 · us fascinating new light regarding the
10:11 · good Mrs shakespeare thank you

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--> YouTube-Generated Transcript <--
0:00	·	now the Shakespeare sleuth the man
0:02	·	behind this new analysis is Matthew
0:03	·	Stegler professor of early modern
0:06	·	English literature at the University of
0:07	·	Bristol and he joins us on the program
0:09	·	Matthew great to talk to you this Sunday
0:12	·	evening let's start very glad to be here
0:14	·	the fragment of this letter Matthew has
0:16	·	been around for almost 30 years tell us
0:19	·	how it was first discovered and how did
0:21	·	you get involved in finally deciphering
0:23	·	it
0:25	·	it was first noticed in
0:27	·	1978 by uh a librarian who was
0:30	·	cataloging a book which had been
0:32	·	acquired by Heraford Cathedral Library
0:35	·	now binders in the 17th century would
0:37	·	often when they were making a book use
0:39	·	bits of waste paper in the binding to
0:42	·	pat out the binding because paper was
0:44	·	quite expensive so you would sometimes
0:46	·	get letters or book sellers accounts or
0:48	·	whatever reused as waste paper it's a
0:51	·	kind of recycling and in this case
0:53	·	whoever bound this book back in the 17th
0:55	·	century uh happened to use a couple of
0:58	·	strips of letter one of which does have
1:00	·	this alarming reference to Mrs
1:02	·	shakespeare on and so that's that's how
1:05	·	it's been preserved is because it's sort
1:06	·	of been thrown away once if you see what
1:08	·	I mean yeah so it was kind of wedged
1:10	·	into this uh book in Heraford Cathedral
1:13	·	Library we don't know who uh the
1:16	·	fragment of this letter the author of
1:18	·	this letter is but we know it's about a
1:19	·	boy called John Buts whose father had
1:22	·	died it says that William Shakespeare
1:23	·	was holding money on trust for John i
1:25	·	think that's right but it's entitled to
1:27	·	the good Mrs shakespeare and she's being
1:29	·	asked to pay what Shakespeare owed
1:33	·	that's right so um who whoever Yeah so
1:36	·	Mrs shakespeare is being addressed
1:38	·	saying "Please pay up the money your
1:40	·	husband is not is not
1:43	·	um your your husband does not pay to
1:45	·	this orphan and the question is does is
1:47	·	that Mr shakespeare are Mr shakespeare
1:49	·	and that that's the thing that that this
1:51	·	research has really tried to nail down
1:53	·	and the key link here is that you've
1:55	·	also established where this boy John
1:57	·	Buts lived he was close to the theater
1:59	·	this is nearby Shortage i think it's now
2:01	·	Shortage High Street and it you it was
2:04	·	used by the same stretch by the company
2:07	·	that Shakespeare wrote and acted for the
2:09	·	Lord Chamberlain's men so that kind of
2:10	·	connects the dots a little more too does
2:12	·	it
2:16	·	that's right and actually scholars have
2:18	·	been searching for centuries for the ref
2:20	·	the records of London looking for
2:21	·	references to people called Shakespeare
2:23	·	there so you can characterize them quite
2:25	·	well and this is one that doesn't fit
2:27	·	with any of the other known
2:28	·	Shakespearees at the period so so that
2:30	·	that's the argument for it being William
2:32	·	yeah and so if we start to try to
2:35	·	triangulate out from this fragment we've
2:38	·	talked about John Bert we've talked
2:39	·	about the good Mrs shakespeare the
2:41	·	reason it might also be the fragment in
2:43	·	this particular book and if you could
2:45	·	explain essentially is because the book
2:46	·	itself was published by Shakespeare's
2:49	·	neighbor a man called Richard Field
2:53	·	that's right uh Shakespeare's uh
2:55	·	favorite printer who was a probably a
2:57	·	school friend
2:59	·	from Stratford
3:02	·	um comes to and among his printings he
3:04	·	prints the first editions of Venus and
3:06	·	Adonis um the rape Shakespeare's poems
3:09	·	um and it's a book printed by him but
3:11	·	whoever is binding it was binding at the
3:13	·	point that they had a Shakespeare letter
3:14	·	on hand so so an association between
3:18	·	Richardfield and the Shakespearees is is
3:20	·	is one of one of the reasons that you
3:22	·	think yeah this is likely to be our Mr
3:24	·	shakespeare rather than any of those
3:26	·	other possible candidates so that's how
3:28	·	we've got there so far Matthew it's
3:30	·	incredible sleuth work from you there
3:32	·	are still though many assumptions and
3:33	·	leaps that have to be made about so
3:35	·	little being known about Anne and
3:37	·	Williams relationship reading Jermaine
3:40	·	Greer's Shakespeare's wife she often
3:41	·	comes off very badly doesn't she anna
3:43	·	the way it seems uh it's often given
3:45	·	more away don't you think about the
3:47	·	writer of the opinion rather than being
3:49	·	based on facts and I want to quote to
3:50	·	you a couple of things so you've got the
3:52	·	19th century poet Thomas Moore friend of
3:54	·	Lord Byron says this of Shakespeare in
3:56	·	the 1800s he says quote "Among the very
3:59	·	few facts of life that have been
4:01	·	transmitted to us about Shakespeare
4:03	·	there is none more clearly proved than
4:05	·	unhappiness of his marriage." Then in
4:07	·	the late '9s literary critic Shakespeare
4:09	·	biographer Anthony Holden writes this it
4:12	·	is hard to believe such an ambitious
4:14	·	young dreamer always aware that the
4:16	·	world was elsewhere beyond Stratford was
4:18	·	so enamored to a homaly wench 8 years
4:21	·	his senior and then there's this too
4:24	·	Hollywood Shakespeare in love when
4:25	·	William appears to be psychologically
4:27	·	damaged by the relationship let's take a
4:29	·	look wench wench is quite a strong word
4:31	·	yeah let's take a look at this
4:36	·	you have a wife children
4:41	·	I
4:44	·	I was a lad of 18 and Haway was a woman
4:46	·	half as old again a woman of property
4:49	·	she had a cottage one day she was 3
4:52	·	months gone with child sir and your
4:54	·	relations on my mother's side the arans
4:58	·	no your marriage bed 4 years and 100
5:01	·	miles away in
5:03	·	Stratford a cold bed too since the twins
5:06	·	were
5:06	·	born banishment was a blessing so now
5:10	·	you are free to love you cannot love nor
5:12	·	write it
5:14	·	matthew of course we will never know uh
5:16	·	having found this what is your personal
5:18	·	assessment of their relationship
5:24	·	the really interesting thing about this
5:26	·	bit of paper assuming that it is William
5:28	·	and Anne is that it's the first piece of
5:30	·	paper that puts her in London and those
5:33	·	guys quoted one of the the central
5:36	·	blanks of of of their argument was the
5:38	·	no piece of paper which ever shows that
5:40	·	she lived with her husband in London so
5:42	·	this is the first exception really this
5:43	·	is the the first sort of um sort of
5:47	·	in the wall on that and I mean I
5:50	·	mean you mentioned Jermaine Greer
5:51	·	Jermaine Greer's fabulous book
5:52	·	suggesting that she's a more figure
5:55	·	she's not this kind of wench uh in the
5:57	·	countryside i think this certainly
5:58	·	speaks to that agenda and I know other
6:00	·	scholars are doing stuff on that at the
6:02	·	moment so
6:04	·	so as you say I really think about
6:06	·	halfway what's the response been like to
6:09	·	you this week Matthew has there been
6:11	·	outrage from Bolattors more used to the
6:14	·	homely and wanted wife narrative or been
6:16	·	some delight from you know opening up a
6:18	·	new intrigue about her and their
6:20	·	relationship
6:26	·	i think everybody who is interested in
6:28	·	the field is certainly interested i mean
6:30	·	there's a
6:33	·	um in some ways it's good that it's not
6:35	·	it's not been sort of universally
6:37	·	accepted or universally rejected people
6:39	·	are going to think about it people are
6:40	·	going to check check the evidence um
6:42	·	maybe use it as a springboard for
6:44	·	further research so it's part of an
6:45	·	ongoing conversation yeah tell me about
6:48	·	what's um next for you are you in the
6:51	·	midst of working on something because
6:52	·	I'm also intrigued as to you know we're
6:54	·	kind of chinking away at bits of new
6:56	·	information is there thought to be much
6:58	·	left to discover
7:03	·	well I mean this is I got into this
7:05	·	because I was writing a biography of
7:07	·	Shakespeare so so that's still ongoing
7:10	·	um and I mean there certainly is more to
7:12	·	discover there there are you know um
7:15	·	famously a couple of lost plays that
7:17	·	Shakespeare wrote which are still not
7:19	·	very well understood it would be lovely
7:21	·	to think one could find one of them
7:24	·	although that's probably best praying
7:26	·	for but there's certainly more to be
7:28	·	found out with with the kind of new
7:30	·	new tools that we have now i just wonder
7:34	·	how many other bits of information you
7:36	·	know this is just incredible and you
7:38	·	think the reality is this has been lying
7:39	·	around since 1978 since it was
7:42	·	discovered and it's taken this time to
7:44	·	decipher and maybe this opens up to
7:46	·	other potential sleuths but is there
7:48	·	other information that could be related
7:49	·	to Shakespeare that still needs to be be
7:52	·	defined i mean there are I guess there
7:53	·	are lots of things particularly about
7:54	·	Anne Hatherway where we don't really
7:56	·	know her exact age i think I'm right to
7:58	·	say for example that it was a a brass
8:00	·	plaque that's put up later by
8:02	·	Shakespeare's grave that seems to
8:03	·	suggest that she was 8 years older but
8:05	·	we don't really know if she was indeed
8:07	·	older
8:10	·	that's right and actually it's funny you
8:12	·	should mention that particular item
8:13	·	because um a colleague of mine named
8:15	·	Katherine Shy is is working on that
8:17	·	plaque at the moment and some of the
8:18	·	interesting mysteries about about it so
8:21	·	I think there will be more discoveries
8:22	·	to come on on precisely that that score
8:25	·	and that's a great example as well
8:27	·	there's a thing that one piece of paper
8:29	·	if we could find another another
8:30	·	document we might be able to nail down
8:33	·	yeah is it hard to put your head over
8:35	·	the parapit in a Shakespearean community
8:37	·	that uh often likes to have one way of
8:40	·	looking at things and a house built
8:41	·	sometimes of of paper straws
8:46	·	to an extent to an extent but I I mean
8:49	·	I'm a fan of the Shakespeare community
8:50	·	they are very very um on my whole it's a
8:54	·	it's a broad church it's very Yeah i
8:55	·	mean and and as I say we're united by an
8:58	·	interest in the works and the question
9:01	·	of of of the guy who wrote them and but
9:03	·	but also by the works themselves because
9:05	·	they're the things that really have got
9:06	·	pe people into him and and and make them
9:10	·	interested in him yeah and finally where
9:12	·	did your love of Shakespeare come from
9:14	·	Professor
9:20	·	i found him in the library i'm sorry
9:22	·	this is going to sound very sad but I uh
9:25	·	came across a copy of Shakespeare's
9:26	·	works um uh in a library and thought
9:29	·	this looks good and then I went to a
9:31	·	secondhand bookshop and must have been
9:33	·	about 11 or 12 i bought a couple of the
9:35	·	plays which sounded cool like Hamlet and
9:38	·	McBTH and and that for me was the
9:40	·	routine through um plays but the nice
9:43	·	thing is everybody has a different way
9:44	·	in for some it's seeing a film of of of
9:48	·	a production um for a lot it's Romeo
9:51	·	plus Juliet that that that that film for
9:53	·	instance for some it's going to the
9:54	·	theater and seeing it live so everyone's
9:56	·	got their own story of engagement with
9:58	·	it
10:00	·	well time has come to a stop professor I
10:02	·	can no other answer but make but thanks
10:04	·	thanks and ever thanks professor Matthew
10:06	·	Stegel thank you so much for speaking to
10:08	·	us fascinating new light regarding the
10:11	·	good Mrs shakespeare thank you