Posted on 06/30/2023 11:11:17 AM PDT by linMcHlp
EXCERPTS:
If you want to believe America is still the "arsenal of democracy" that Franklin Roosevelt described in 1940, you might want to avoid looking too closely at the U.S. manufacturing sector. China has become the world's premier industrial power, greatly out-producing the United States in everything from steel to smartphones. Germany's machine-tool industry outshines our own. No U.S. shipyard has built a commercial ship destined for international commerce in decades.
I toured the last remaining tank plant in America, located in Lima, Ohio. General Dynamics, a donor to my think tank and consulting client, flew me there to see where it assembles the latest version of the Army's M1A2 main battle tank. The cavernous facility contains 1.6 million square feet of manufacturing space. The Trump administration is investing a boatload of money in modernizing the facility, but it's clear the place was neglected for a long time after Washington declared victory over communism.
The Army actually wanted to close it -- it is a government-owned facility -- even though it was the only surviving tank plant in the Western Hemisphere.
(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...
No worries, if there’s a war the DoD will quickly convert EV factories to tank production.
In a lost land in another time.
No worries. We can always buy tanks from China.
It was the great manufacturing prowess which made America great, but for long while, US businesses were outsourcing anything they could.
Now, the chicken are coming back to roost!
There is a heavy manufacturing plant near me, in Muskegon, Michigan. Teledyne Continental Motors, that still refurbishes ours and all kinds of tanks and armoured vehicles at Government request. It is a shadow of it’s former self, when it made tanks and aircraft engines for our military.
China make the entire system for all its products - not just the lone factory churning out a particular product where parts come JIT from different sources, like now in the US.
It basically manufactures or imports the raw materials which make the tool to make the tools to make a part which goes to another plant which is attaches the part to another which goes ... and then to the plant where the final product is produced. Usually, its all just one huge sprawling plant, employing 100s of thousands of workers.
This was the model that Henry Ford created and we forgot.
How did they expect to produce tanks in the future? Have China do it?
I think (thought?) there is a General Dynamics plant on the west side of Houston (Katy, now) that builds the M113 APC’s, but it might have been closed now. I haven’t been to San Antonio in a couple of years, so not really sure anymore.
Tanks are just targets given modern weapons. The marines gave up their tanks and so should the army.
“How did they expect to produce tanks in the future? Have China do it?”
I was employed by General Dynamics and mostly worked on the Abrams subassemblies and other heavy vehicles. GD had the contract to run the plant discussed here. The reason the army wanted to stop producing the Abrams and close the plant was the tanks are terribly vulnerable. Not the tank itself, but the logistics train behind the tank. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but the tanks had a pretty short range as they burned several gallons of fuel for each mile. They weighed somewhere around seventy tons and could only be moved by ships, special trucks and rail cars. When they were moved to Saudi Arabia the entire fleet of tanks were on two ships which, if I recall, were rented. We don’t even own the ships we need to move them. Any future war where the tanks had to be moved by ship would probably be against a power with submarines. Also, drones and shoulder carried technology make the tanks, if not obsolete, extremely vulnerable. The tanks, depending on the version and upgrade package, costs in the many millions of dollars. Drones and shoulder fired ammo to take them out costs anywhere from ten to a hundred thousand dollars. The economics of the tradeoff no longer makes sense.
A drone that is effectively undetectable can cruise behind the line and take out the tankers. No fuel, no tanks.
The army wanted to go smaller, lighter and stealthy. Because they are spending so much on armor they can’t transport to where they need it, they can’t spend money on what they want.
Tanks are nice to have, but so were battleships. We have thousands of tanks in storage, and we simply don’t need any more.
Here’s a political oddity. There are much more efficient engines that we could reequip the existing tanks with. But because Congress insists, we keep buying new tanks, which go straight to storage, there’s no money to change out the engines.
Hey, no problemo. The US can just get China to supply all the military equipment we need if we ever go to war against China. Hell, Raytheon is already getting them to produce parts we need for our military equipment so what could possibly go wrong. Seems to me many American Industry CEOs are abandoning America’s industry to line their own pockets by outsourcing business to foreign countries. Use to call people like that traitors.
My old employer, TAN Books and Publishers Inc., used to operate out of a former tank parts facility on Rockford, Illinois . . . 400,000 square feet. WAY more than what we needed, but the company founder had big dreams. Old style building with lots of windows integrated into the otherwise flat roof to let in natural light. Last I know it was used for storage, largely by Owens Corning.
“We have thousands of tanks in storage, and we simply don’t need any more.”
That’s odd, Ukraine is begging for them.
“...we keep buying new tanks, which go straight to storage..”
Question is will we be able to use them if we are invaded? Only vet tankers would be able to handle them. How about ammunition?
“That’s odd, Ukraine is begging for them.”
What we don’t have is the export model. The standard model has armor that is still top secret, It’s not allowed for sale or gift. The export model has good armor, but not quite up to the standard model.
“Question is will we be able to use them if we are invaded?”
America is the most secure country on Earth. We have an ocean on each side, Mexico below us and Canada above us. There’s no likely threat from an organized military. However, our government is determined to wipe out white Christians and substitute Muslims and foreigners. Because America bad. Anything else good.
Thank you. v. interesting. I was under the impression the Army wanted Abrams tanks. Certainly at some point, at least at the start of the the program, the army wanted them (?)
I assume this logistics train you mention, and the fact no one in eastern europe know how to repair them - is the reason Biden has not sent Abrams to Ukraine, even though they were promised?
The tanks were and are fantastic. The problem is they were designed to be in Germany where they’d rush to the Fulda Gap and stop the Soviet armor. They were never intended to be shipped or air dropped into a combat zone. Yes, they require a sophisticated test and repair facility. There are line replicable items, meaning battle line replicable and then there are depot replicable items. The tanks have a mean time between failure of about an hour. So, they require a lot of spares, and they are much harder to diagnose than your car. (By the way I worked on a line replaceable assembly the size of two packs of cigarettes. We charged $40000 for it. One honking relay and some thick resistors. Forty thousand dollars.)
As for why the Ukrainians don’t have them yet. We’ll have to build the export model as there are probably none sitting around. The export model has different armor and may have a different set of internals and software. It probably takes a year to train depot personnel and a few months to train crews to do maintenance and then the crews have to learn to fight the tank in combined arms. The tank by itself is more vulnerable than a tank surrounded by infantry and support vehicles.
The logistics of supporting Abrams and F16’s is complex, expensive and easily hit by Russian bombs and missiles. There’s no place in Ukraine where it would be safe and secure enough to have a repair depot. If Russia was losing badly and they blamed the tanks or F16’s then they might attack the repair depots that are currently in foreign countries repairing the old Russian hardware that has been seized.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.