Posted on 06/25/2021 1:45:06 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
Today marks the 145th anniversary of Custer's infamous "Last Stand". He always had his detractors and worshippers. Especially among his contemporaries. Major James Brisbin (2nd US Cav) is quoted as saying he was an "insufferable ass".
While we all know the woke folks will refer to him as either a "colonizer", "genocidal maniac", or worse - a "racist", his portrayal and legend is a story that will probably not die in this century or even the next.
I wanted this thread to be about him, and his massively compounded errors that led to his death and the annihilation of his battalion on June 25th, 1876.
Sure books have been written by the "experts" who swear that his movements were intentional on the ridge overlooking the LBR and beyond to the north and west.
I know a lot of FReepers are history geeks like me. So I'm going to throw out some bullets and let this thread fly. And for those who might have questions about locations or abbreviations I apologize in advance - I've just read too many books on the subject and it'll take too much space to explain. We can discuss it in the thread.
*White Cow Bull's testimony that he shot an officer in buckskin riding a sorrel horse with 4 white stockings barking orders at the Medicine Tail Coulee and dropping him. From there the Grey Horse Company backtracked up the ridge and it was a defensive slaughter from there
*Archaeological evidence of heavy skirmishing on the ridge where the current cemetery is located. Was this a retreat or where they still trying to find an alternate crossing?
*Did Company C really try to hold a line facing NW where the current museum is and eventually got routed and lost all of their horses? No markers are found there.
*Captain Myles Keough was probably the biggest legend IMHO on the Army's side. Testimony states he was shot through his knee and fell off his horse and the soldiers of Company I surrounded him immediately getting surrounded and wiped out with a handful of survivors running for dear life towards the NW where Co's C & F were. Keough was the only one not mutilated.
*Theodore Goldin's testimony. Always a controversial piece. Reliable? Or tall tale?
*Curley's Testimony. Reliable or tall tale?
*Benteen. Had he followed orders I believe he would have been ambushed upon approaching the ravine and ridge area where Co's I and L fell. Should he have followed orders? Or did he do the right thing? Also, would Reno have survived without him? My guess is probably not.
*Reno's Valley Fight. It's been stated by at least two witnesses on the Army's side and several Natives that had he kept his battalion in the timber they could have held out indefinitely. The fires the Indians were attempting to start to burn the brush couldn't start due to recent rains. Should he have stayed in the timber? Should he have dismounted and fired volleys? The retreat was a complete disaster and massive unnecessary loss of men.
*Finally Custer. *Should he have followed his initial plan and rested his exhausted troops and attack at dawn on the 26th?
*Should he have split his forces into three? Maybe two?
*Reconnaissance - there was none and the results showed.
*He clearly didn't trust his scouts or officers.
*He took with him his loyal officers and left those who hated him for the most part to maneuver the primary striking force of his attack. Perhaps Keogh or TW Custer leading the charge would have produced a bit more time for him to strike his hammer blow?
*His armaments were single shot springfield rifles. Would Spencers have produced a better defense?
Native Americans *Let's discuss how many warriors there really may have been?
*Why didn't they run here and at the Rosebud? The coordination was extraordinary and unique for them in these two battles.
*Why did they break their camp apart after this battle and not face Terry/Gibbon? They probably could have wiped them out as well if they struck them with the ferocity that they did Crook and Custer.
Some Relative Unknowns or little mentioned in the battle who I really like:
Isaiah Dorman Mitch Bouyer Charles Windolph Rain in the Face (claims he killed TW Custer) Two Moon (Later became a Christian) Lt. Harrington (Body never found)
MYSTERIES:
Did Frank Finkel actually survive and live to tell about it? Is there any truth to the story of the 7th Cavalry dead horse found near the Tongue a few months later?
Did the 2nd Cavalry really see "smoke" at about 2pm on the 25th from 40 miles away from the battlefield as has been mentioned in a few books? Hard to believe that.
Please feel free to add to this list and lets discuss it in more detail. I've probably read about 30 books about the battle and I always learn something new. There's also a good bit of BS out there as well.
Appreciate you fellow LBH history nerds!
Disclaimer: It’s been awhile since I’ve scanned the timelines of the battle. I may be off by up to half an hour on some estimates.
On June 25th it’s the belief that the Reno fight started at around 3:15pm or so. His column retreated about 35-40 minutes later and ended up in an unorganized defensive position on “Reno Hill” probably after 4pm.
The Custer fight probably started shortly before 4pm and by 5:15 - 5:30 the Indians had wrapped up the final killing.
The one time estimate I do remember is Capt. Weir getting to Weir Point at about 5:30 and seeing the Battlefield from a few miles off and describing the Indians shooting into the ground (or finishing off the wounded and doing mop up operations).
Some historians give the Custer fight range from 30 minutes to almost 2 hours. I’d say 2 hours is way overblown considering the massive horde he was up against from the village and the Indians who had just defeated Reno to the east.
My reading of Indian accounts say Custer was hit at the rivers edge trying to cross, things got jumbled and a trooper held him up on his horse as they retreated to the place he was found. The indian’s families were in the encampment the braves weren’t backing off. His Crow scouts either deserted or sang they’re death songs before the battle according to some accounts. If you like history it’s a great read. Just read both sides and discount half of both sides. IMO
Yes! I had read about Custer being hit fording the river in his retreat to set up a defensive position. That’s why I was asking. It would explain why his men were in disarray.
Thanks for responding.
Just a handful of my favorite books:
“Crazy Horse” by Mari Sandoz
“Crazy Horse - The Life Behind The Legend” by Mike Sajna
“The Fighting Cheyennes” by George Bird Grinnell
and then there’s the fabulous journals of
George Catlin -— “North American Indians”
Check out 2 books by Thomas Marquis. They were recommended to me
by the park rangers at Little Bighorn Natl Monument.
Well worth the read.
“Keep The Last Bullet For Yourself”
and
“Wooden Leg — A Warrior Who Fought Custer”
Why start if with so many negatives and no positives of General Custer?
General Custer was a legendary leader in the Civil War
General Custer was responsible for General Lee being forced to surrender at Appomattox. Custer led his troops in position to cut off Lee’s retreat. They survived the initial Confederate attempt to break through.
Relief infantry then came up and closed off the line of retreat !!!
Lee surrendered on April 9th.
At his surrender, he recognized Custers efforts.
Here is White Cow Bull’s narrative on Custer being hit at the Medicine Tail Coulee River crossing.
https://www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/white_cow_bull_little_big_horn.html
That is one story.
Rain-in-the-Face, a Sioux Chief, describes an organized defense along the battleridge with multiple officers pointing and barking orders to their soldiers to dismount and fire suppressive volleys.
Another Indian account by a woman (forget her name) states Custer was after the women and children to capture them and got all the way to the National Cemetery location but couldn’t cross. He took Co F with him to that point. The total collapse of his east wing (Keogh and Calhoun) brought about a bunch of those surviving soldiers running for their lives on foot over the hills and Custer seeing them - ditched his plans for offense and went immediately into defensive mode with what little soldiers he had left (80 at this point?).
This is what makes this battle so interesting. We’ll never know the real deal.
Thank you!
More stuff to dive into - love it.
And he was one of the most promoted of his class too !
Custer got bumped 5 ranks in one day!
The Union reorganized their Cavalry wing, three leaders got raised up.
Custer immediately used his new rank of help win the Gettysfield(?) battle.
Lee’s plan was a dual attack - Pickets charge to the front, Stuart’s cavalry to the rear.
Custer had disobeyed orders to move his troops to remain where he was needed that day !
His extremely reckless charges with his 4 Wolverine cavalry units was effective in stopping the confederate cavalry !
One of the others promoted, did not get his day in the sun. He was shot and killed that day.
Custer had, what was it, three horses shot out from under him that day.
This is a LBH analysis - there’s nothing positive to say about Custer regarding this battle. He wasted over 250 good decent men who could’ve fathered untold numbers of children for our nation.
Custer is a polarizing figure no matter what the truth really is. He’s like Trump. You love him or hate him.
He certainly had his moments during the CW, but most people don’t know what he did at Trevilian Station. That was almost his “last stand” had it not been for Sheridan.
He goofed a lot! And the recurring theme for him which eventually led to his downfall was always - always his failure to reconnoiter the terrain.
He got lucky at Brandy Station, but he helped beat JEB for the first time.
I also think the belief that he saved the day at Gettysburg is way overblown. Pickett’s Charge was over by then anyways.
The Shenandoah campaign was probably his highpoint. Winchester, Cedar Creek - all great points.
But he’ll always be remembered for the LBH.
Custer was the recon force.
This was a major Union offensive against the Indians. Far from a solo attack.
There were three major prongs of attack.
The Indians had already defeated the Southern force and forced them to turn back. Who was that? General Crook?
Custer was probably supposed to be a flushing force. The Union was most worried that the Indians would just slip away, and not stay and fight.
We don’t know what casualties the two battles inflicted on the Indians. How heavily the two battles depleted their ammo supply. Or how they were situated for food.
The tactical situation dictated that the slip away to recover and rearm. Rather than get surrounded by an overwhelming force and obliterated.
Well I don’t know if anyone can answer this but this is sure the place to put it.
My father always used to say that gen Custer has strait pins put 3 or 4 in a row on the ends of the arms on sleeves of the soldiers uniforms to stop them from wiping their noses on their sleeves. This later became the 3 or 4 buttons on the end of the arms on sleeves.
True?
Interesting.
I always thought Napoleon invented the button ide. Buttons were already on sleeves in the Civil War and Mexican-American War IIRC.
Anytime!
It all began when I stopped over for a ‘quick visit’ to Little Bighorn and I ended up buying about 4 or 5 books about the Little Bighorn.
Then I journeyed to historical accounts of the Plains Indians - specifically the Sioux & Cheyenne.
Being from Texas, I progressed to books about the Comanches and a few other local tribes.
Since then I’ve gone to journals & historical accounts from the Spaniards expeditions into Texas & New Mexico - including the Narrative of Cabeza de Vaca.
Currently I’m engrossed into the historical accounts of LaSalle and the Spaniards obsession with finding his settlement. In this story there is an encyclopedic coverage of the Native Americans tribes who were encountered, including their customs & habits.
Lots more books that cover a myriad of side stories.
I already have on standby for my future reading, “The De Soto Chronicles” which is about 1000 pages in length dealing with that Spaniards exploits in the Southern U.S.
I used to do Civil war reenacting (mounted cavalry) and in 2006, 12 of us went out and participated in the Battle reenactment on the Real Birds property. We camped along the LBH River directly across from Medicine Tail Coulee(MTC). We were able to ride to Weir Point, down Cedar Coulee, MTC, across Nye-Cartwright and Luce Ridges and Deep Coulee. You can’t ride on the battlefield so we had to stop just short of Calhoun hill. It was a great experience, especially for someone that’s been reading about the battle and Custer since the 3rd grade.
Now to the battle. I think that Keogh’s Battalion(Co’s I, L & C) were left on the south end of battle ridge to cover the rear of Yates’ Battalion, w/ headquarters) as they moved farther north to find another Ford(D) and to wait for a link up with Benteen’s Battalion that was known to be back on the trail after his scout to the left, as they came down Reno Creek from the divide.
Yates’ company was left on Cemetery Ridge as Smiths Co. E headed to Ford D. While this was going on Co L was in dismounted skirmish order firing on Indians to the west along Greasy Grass Ridge. Indians then started firing on Calhouns position from Henryville to the SE. When Calhoun shifted his skirmish line to fire on this new threat, indians started infiltrating in Calhoun coulee to the west. It was at this point that Keogh, who had both his company and Co. C being held in reserve on the east side of battle ridge, sent Co C to push the Indians back down Calhoun Coulee. They barely had time to dismount when the were overun and had to retreat back to Calhoun Hill along Finley-Finckle Ridge. The Indians pushed them over Calhoun Hill and toward Keogh so fast that Keogh didn’t have time to deploy his company. From here it was every man for himself as the survivors headed toward the north end of Battle Ridge, where Yates’ Battalion and Custer had moved up to when the battle was taking place to the south. At some point E Co. made a movement down toward Deep Ravine to clear it of Indians, but the Indian numbers were overwhelming. Once the hard fighting on the south end started, it was over pretty quick.
I think that up until Company C was sent down Calhoun Coulee, the major concern was that the Indians would break camp and run as the had always done in the past. The Indians had rode 40 miles the week before to fight Gen Crook to a stalmate on the Rosebud. He spent the rest of the summer at the foot of the Bighorn Mountains licking his wounds and fishing.
Tactically, Custer made good decisions with the information he had, except for his refusal to believe the Indian Scouts and specifically Mitch Bouyer about Indian numbers.
Custer wasn’t an idiot when it came to fighting. He was one of the best cavalry commanders the Union had during the Civil War. At the LBH he ran into superior numbers of a determined foe, which he thought were breaking camp and on the run to the north.
A really good book that ties time motion studies with battlefield archaeology and Indian testimony is “The Strategy of Defeat at the Little BigHorn” by Frederic C. Wagner III. Great pictures of all areas of the battlefield in the book also.
I can’t believe that Custer was killed at MTC and they continued to move north in an offensive posture.
I am a two finger typist so I try to minimize what I type. I had one listed wrong so I am glad you asked.
A Terrible Glory by James Donovan
The ABC’s of Custer’s Last Stand Arthur C. Unger
Archaeology, History, and Custer’s Last Battle Richard Allan Fox,, Jr
The first gave a good overview and the background leading up to the battle. It was very informative and entertaining.
The second gave a lot of detail of the battle itself based on historical records. It had a lot of information.
The third last was the detail of the study of the battlefield after the fire in 1983. You have to be a bit of a nerd to enjoy it.
None of the books were simplistic Custer bad or good. How the hills went up and down really impacted the view. It was in a fairly small area unlike larger battles.
The Comanche were ruthless in war. Everybody feared them.
Speaking of De Soto, did you ever read about the Battle of Mavilla?
It’s somewhere in the mid-Alabama area.
He killed probably close to 3,000 Indian.
Wiping each other out in battle had long been a practice of Indians and Whites towards each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabila
My wife and two pre-teen kids basically let Dad have his four or five hours at the park during a two week trip. They still are puzzled why anyone would be interested and care.
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