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Is Secession Legal?
01/19/2020 | Rfreedom4u

Posted on 01/19/2021 4:38:09 PM PST by rfreedom4u

Many people have stated that secession is illegal and not allowed as determined by the American Civil War. But is it really? Throughout the history of the United States our government has supported the independence/secession of states/territories/colonies from various other nations.

Haiti seceded from the French empire through a slave revolt. South Sudan broke from Sudan. Yugoslavia broke into several countries and later Kosovo seceded from Serbia. Czechoslovakia split into two countries. The Soviet split into quite a few countries. The UK left the European Union. And many others….

So why do people say secession is illegal in the United States? There’s nothing in the US Constitution that mentions secession. The Tenth Amendment states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Using my logic this means that since the issue of secession is not given to the federal government it is reserved to the states or the people themselves to determine. I’ve read the constitution of my own state (Texas) and secession is not mentioned at all. This even furthers my belief that is should be determined by the people.

If I were to join a club and did not like what the club became, I would be well within my rights to quit that club. If I go to see a movie and don’t like it, I can walk out. So why would anyone believe that the United States is a “once you’re in you can’t leave” type of deal? When someone doesn’t like the state in which they live they are free to move to another state or even another country.

If secession/independence/splitting up is supported for other people in the world why is it not ok for citizens of the United States? And yes, I know that politicians are garbage and want to maintain their power and control. So please give me your opinion on whether it is legal or not and why you think that way? But please spare me the “if it’s broke, we don’t run away, we fix it” argument. At this point I am fairly certain that it is not repairable.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: notstatesrights; notthisagain; secession; statesrights; vanity
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To: x
That, and Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase told Federal prosecutors that if they tried Davis, they would "lose in court everything they had won on the battlefield."

He also said "Secession is not treason."

181 posted on 01/19/2021 9:24:02 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

see #180


182 posted on 01/19/2021 9:24:15 PM PST by moehoward (.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

“Sending warships” is no more an act of war than embargoing oil supplies to Japan in 1940.

Firing artillershells onto a Fort Sumter.... that’s an act of war.


183 posted on 01/19/2021 9:27:29 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: moehoward
You will have to explain the point you are trying to make here. Lincoln established that might makes right. This is not a legal argument to prove secession was illegal.

For that you have to start with the founding documents.

184 posted on 01/19/2021 9:28:25 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Kevmo
“Sending warships” is no more an act of war than embargoing oil supplies to Japan in 1940.

Your analogy would fit if the embargo included instructions to go fire cannon shells at the men on the ground of a major Japanese port city.

You do understand these ships had orders to use "force" to make them comply?

Firing artillershells onto a Fort Sumter.... that’s an act of war.

It's a response to an act of war already engaged upon.

185 posted on 01/19/2021 9:32:28 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

So if the embargo did NOT include those instructions, would you concede the point? I doubt it.


186 posted on 01/19/2021 9:34:15 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

“The attack on Ft. Sumter would not have happened had Lincoln not sent a fleet of warships to attack the Confederates around Sumter. It was the arrival of the first of the warships that triggered the attack.”

That’s nonsense. Lincoln sent ships to resupply the Fort with food only, and notified the confederates that was his plan.

The attack on Fort Sumter was the stupidest act of statecraft until December 7, 1941 was even stupider. Confederate Secretary of State Robert Toombs warned Jeff Davis just how disastrous his planned attack would be, but to no avail.


187 posted on 01/19/2021 9:36:59 PM PST by devere
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To: DiogenesLamp

So you’re on both sides of this issue. Seems appropriate for someone naming himself after Diogeneses.

You don’t realize it , but that is YOUR bias. Heavily strong bias to fall into the middle.


188 posted on 01/19/2021 9:37:07 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: Kevmo
If the threat of force wasn't introduced by Lincoln, the Confederates would not have fired on Sumter.

They did in fact do everything of which they could think to avoid firing on Sumter.

General Beauregard sent word to Major Anderson that Union warships would be arriving soon, and that they might possibly attack Beauregard's forces, and if Anderson would refrain from firing at Beauregard's forces, He would refrain from firing on Anderson.

Anderson responded that if the Confederates fired at any ship bearing the Union flag, he would use all the force at his disposal against them.

So Beauregard was informed that he would have to face enemy fire from the Fort and from the Ships simultaneously.

His choice was to neutralize the fort immediately before the rest of the ships arrived, or face both the ships and the fort with a likely subsequent greater loss of his men.

What would you have done?

The tragedy is that Anderson had already written up the evacuation order and that if those ships hadn't arrived, Anderson and his men were going to leave the fort in another day or so.

And by the way, Anderson himself wrote that it was a nasty dirty deed the way Lincoln sent those ships to attack them after everyone had been led to believe such a thing would not be done.

189 posted on 01/19/2021 9:43:33 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

I was just countering the quote from Alberta’s Child from the same speech.

“For that you have to start with the founding documents.”

Well, yes. But their actions spoke louder than any words. Looking for legal permission to secede? The founders didn’t. They did justify it and I’d say we are pretty close in the justification department.


190 posted on 01/19/2021 9:46:05 PM PST by moehoward (.)
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To: devere

+1


191 posted on 01/19/2021 9:47:13 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: moehoward

I’ll read that later.


192 posted on 01/19/2021 9:48:32 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: devere
That’s nonsense. Lincoln sent ships to resupply the Fort with food only, and notified the confederates that was his plan.

The Powhatan, The Pocahontas, The Pawnee, The Harriet Lane, The Yankee, and even the Thomas Freeborn has a big cannon on it. The "Baltic" was being used as a troop carrier and had troops and munitions on it.

Let me show you a picture of some of these "supply" ships.

The Powhatan and the Pocahontas were even more formidable.

Do those look like "Supply" ships?

193 posted on 01/19/2021 9:52:43 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Kevmo
I do not understand how you think I am on both sides of the issue. I think the Declaration of Independence is the legal basis for secession being legal, and I think the Civil War was a tragedy.
194 posted on 01/19/2021 9:54:24 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

By today’s standards, hell yes.

By their concurrent standards, maybe. The determination of who started a fight is ... who started the fight... by firing first.

The south fired first. They coulda sent out some kind of surrender monkey whiteflag shipe to “negotiate”. And so could have the North. Failure on both sides.


195 posted on 01/19/2021 10:00:06 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

I’m just proceeding on the basis of your posts.

Feel free to establish your narrative. Perhaps even start your own vanity post.


196 posted on 01/19/2021 10:01:51 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: rfreedom4u
Secession, without the consent of the other states, is not legal:

In light of all that, it seems clear to me that the Founders did not believe that a state could lawfully secede or withdraw from the Union. As the Supreme Court majority in Texas v. White recognized when holding that secession was unconstitutional, secession can only be accomplished through the consent of the other states or "revolution," an overthrowing of the existing legal regime.
197 posted on 01/19/2021 10:06:34 PM PST by The Pack Knight
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To: DiogenesLamp

What would I have done?

I woulda sent a nasty dirty telegram to Lincoln and others saying that they broke their word but I refuse to fire on this fort.

Of course, that’s with hindsight being 20/20. Nowadays, quite a bit of that kind of required restraint is in the training manuals, but probably not nearly enough, because shiite happens.


198 posted on 01/19/2021 10:26:55 PM PST by Kevmo (I'm in a slow motion Red Dawn reality TV show. The tree of liberty is thirsty.)
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To: x; Slyfox; rockrr

You are advocating that States remain enslaved because some misguided fools value the Union more than freedom.


199 posted on 01/19/2021 10:27:04 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn...)
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To: rockrr
Unilateral secession is expressly unconstitutional.

Come on you know there is nothing in the USC making secession unconstitutional. You know better.

200 posted on 01/19/2021 10:29:04 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn...)
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