Lee, Virginia, and the Union

https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org ^ | March 27, 2019 | Fred H. Cox

[NKP_Vet]

The Hall of Fame recently dedicated at New York Uni­versity was conceived from the Ruhmes Halle in Bavaria. This structure on University Heights, on the Harlem river, in the borough of the Bronx, New York City, has, or is in­tended to have, a panel of bronze with other mementos for each of one hundred and fifty native-born Americans who have been deceased at least ten years, and who are of great character and fame in authorship, education, science, art, soldiery, statesmanship, philanthropy, or in any worthy un­dertaking. Fifty names were to have been chosen at once; but, on account of a slight change of plans, only twenty-nine have been chosen, and twenty-one more will be in 1902. The remaining one hundred names are to be chosen during the century, five at the end of each five years. The present judges of names to be honored are one hundred representa­tive American scholars in different callings. They are most­ly Northern men, although at least one judge represents each State.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

You seem to think Northern people can buy European goods without somehow acquiring European currency or European debt.

How did you get the Chinese currency to buy the device you're reading this on?

[rockrr]

Their first acts of war were stealing stuff that didn’t belong to them. Any American would know this.

[DiogenesLamp]

If it was their real estate, it did belong to them.

[DiogenesLamp]

Why do I care? Someone in my economic system is selling stuff to China.

In 1860, it was the Southern states selling stuff to Europe, and the Northern states, using their power of control over congress, forcing people in the Southern states to buy their stuff instead of the European stuff they would have bought instead.

Yes, Northern states were buying stuff, but they were only buying it with money produced by the Southern states, and using the force of government to get it away from the Southern states.

My point still stands. 72% of all that money came from the Southern states. You just don't want to accept it.

[rockrr]

Everything I’m referring to was FEDERAL property - it didn’t belong to any states, north or south - it belonged to the states jointly.

[BroJoeK]

quoting BJK: "Confederates firing on the Union Star of the West in January 1861 had Northerners up in arms and ready for war then."

DiogenesLamp: "Lie."

I have two books specifically on this period, both confirm my statement:

From "Lincoln and the Decision for War" (page 130):

The New York state legislature, January 1861: "...when the first rumors of the attack on the Star of the West reached Albany on January 10, [Democrat State Senator] Spinoza immediately interrupted the Senate's regular business to urge that his resolution be taken up in a special session that evening.
If the reports should prove true, he exclaimed, 'not a moment should be lost in arming the state, and thus demonstrating to the people of the whole country... that on the question of preserving the Union and upholding the majesty of our National laws, New York is a unit.'

"The next day action in the [New York state] Assembly... Speaker of the House Dewitt C. Littlejohn opened the day's secession by presenting a set of resolutions that, although careful to express 'gratitude and admiration' to the Upper Southe unionists, openly declared Southern seizures of federal property to be 'treasonable' and charged that with the attack on the Star of the West 'the insurgent State of South Carolina' had 'virtually declared war.'

The resolution directed the governor to offer the president 'whatever aid in men and money he may require to enable him to enforce the laws and uphold the authority of the Federal Government.'

With no debate the House passed the resolutions 101 to 27; remarkably when the roll was called, the number of assemblymen willing to have their names recorded in opposition dwindled to two, both of them New York City Democrats.
The resolutions were conveyed to the Senate, which despite the rancor of the previous day unanimously suspended its own business and adopted them by a vote of 28 to 1.
The resolutions official, copies were then ordered sent to the president [Buchanan] and the other states.

As it did in Congress and among officials and private citizens across the North, news of the Star of the West had welded the New York legislature into a virtually unaminous body behind the issue of upholding federal authority.
Similar legislative battles across the North produced a spate of patriotic resolutions... "

The book goes on to detail Northern reactions to South Carolinans firing on the Union civilian steamer Star of the West in Charleston harbor, January 1861.

quoting BJK: "By April 1861, Jefferson Davis had already decided to "reduce" Fort Sumter even without Lincoln's resupply fleet, as soon as CSA Gen. Beauregard was ready."

DiogenesLamp: "Lie."

My source for this has been posted on these threads many times, sadly DiogenesLamp refuses to read & learn:

Davis to Bragg, April 3, 1861: "It is scarcely to be doubted that for political reasons the U.S. govt. will avoid making an attack so long as the hope of retaining the border states remains.
There would be to us an advantage in so placing them that an attack by them would be a necessity, but when we are ready to relieve our territory and jurisdiction of the presence of a foreign garrison that advantage is overbalanced by other considerations."

Davis told Bragg that "when we are ready", any advantage to letting the Union fire the first shots is "overbalanced" by "other considerations".
Davis was ready a week later to order Fort Sumter "reduced".

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "My point still stands. 72% of all that money came from the Southern states.
You just don't want to accept it."

Your point is still a lie, regardless of how often you repeat it.
Your own numbers show that Deep South cotton was 47% (not 72%) of US 1859 exports.
So "the South" can claim some credit for that much.
But Southerners also "imported" that much from the North, and that's how Northerners earned money to buy foreign stuff.

The difference between 47% cotton and 72% "Southern states exports" is simply an unjust claim by Confederates on the work products of Southern Union states & regions.

Sorry, DiogenesLamp, but you and your Lost Cause Marxist buddies don't own that money.
It belonged to citizens of the Union, always did, always will, pal.
Get your grubby hands off of it!

[DoodleDawg]

If it was their real estate, it did belong to them.

But it wasn't their real estate.

[DiogenesLamp]

Not if it was on their land when they chose to leave. Then it reverted back to being their property.

[DiogenesLamp]

Skip.

[DiogenesLamp]

Your point is still a lie, regardless of how often you repeat it. Your own numbers show that Deep South cotton was 47% (not 72%) of US 1859 exports.

This is the sort of lying you do. Total exports from the South constituted 72% of the total, (some say as much as 85%) and you keep trying to pretend it was 50% by focusing solely on Cotton.

Nope, it was 72% of the total, from 1/4 of the entire population of the United States. The same 1/4 that was therefore paying most of the taxes while the other 3/4 were getting the subsidies from the taxes paid by the Southern state production.

Plenty enough money over which powerful business interests would push for a war.

[DiogenesLamp]

Ft. Sumter was certainly their real estate because it rested upon their inhabited region. Let me have Abraham Lincoln explain this simple natural law concept to you.

This is a most valuable, a most sacred right—a right which, we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Skip."

I notice you generally skip my best posts.
In this particular case you claimed two statements by me were "lies", remarking further:

"I'm not even going to bother explaining to you why what you are saying is a lie.
It will do no good, because you have no concept of objectivity.
You really believe the crap you spout.
For everyone else reading, these two things BroJoeK said were lies.
They are factually incorrect, and provably so."

And yet, when I conclusively prove my statements are true, how does DiogenesLamp respond?

"Skip."

Typical Democrat Lost Causer.

[DiogenesLamp]

That one can come right after the court case to overturn the 13th amendment and restore slavery because, according to Diogenes, it was improperly ratified.

According to clear objective fact it was improperly ratified, but with deliberately corrupt courts, they will admit nothing that overturns their political preference.

But what does Bubba Ho-Tep believe? Do you think the 13th amendment was ratified by the Southern states, or were they merely doing what they were ordered to do with Washington DC instructing them how to vote?

You see, it's rather hard to claim they fought a long brutal war to keep slaves as slaves, and then claim they just decided to give that up for no particular reason.

It is in fact an obvious lie.

[DiogenesLamp]

Why should I point out to you how you are lying? You either have a mental block preventing you from seeing it, or you are doing it consciously.

What good does it do me to argue with someone who has no objectivity? Why should I bother?

You are factually incorrect on both counts. If you had objectivity, you could explain how yourself.

[BroJoeK]

DiognesLamp: "You see, it's rather hard to claim they fought a long brutal war to keep slaves as slaves, and then claim they just decided to give that up for no particular reason.
It is in fact an obvious lie."

DiogenesLamp well knows the answer, but pretends he doesn't: in the years after Appomattox Court House former slaves were enfranchised and former Confederates temporarily disenfranchised.
Confederate states which wanted to send representatives to Congress had to ratify the new amendments.
Turned out, they nearly all did.

But it only lasted a few years, until 1876, then Democrat white racists again took over Confederate states, effectively nullified the 13th, 14th & 15th amendments and re-imposed forms of slavery for much of the next hundred years.

[rockrr]

Perhaps in your fevered imagination, but not in the real world.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "You are factually incorrect on both counts.
If you had objectivity, you could explain how yourself."

If you'd bother to read my post #386, you'd learn that your words are total lies and mine absolute truth.

Obviously, that's why you refuse to read my posts, much less respond honestly.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Why do I care? Someone in my economic system is selling stuff to China.

Then where did they get the Chinese money to buy it with? You insist that the only way to buy imported goods is by trading for them with exported goods. So what is the electronic company trading to the Chinese manufacturers?

Yes, Northern states were buying stuff, but they were only buying it with money produced by the Southern states, and using the force of government to get it away from the Southern states.

No matter how many times you insist on this, it's still utterly false. Northern consumers bought imported goods with money they made in a thousand different ways. You seem to believe that the only money the north had was from cotton exports, when your own numbers show that those were only 7% of GNP. That leaves 93% of GNP--money earned in other ways--with which to purchase items from overseas. And we've already demonstrated that, contrary to your belief, specie transfers going both ways were a major component of trade. You apparently believe that the only way international trade works is through some primitive barter system. "I will give you a bale of cotton in return for that crate of manufactured goods." It's a child's understanding of commerce.

Just out of curiosity, given that cotton was no longer being shipped in the same quantities that it was before the war, how did the United States pay for the things they imported during and immediately after the war?

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Ft. Sumter was certainly their real estate because it rested upon their inhabited region.

So property deeds are literally not worth the paper they're printed on if someone can simply claim that they're the inhabitants of the area around the property that you hold the deed to.