Lee, Virginia, and the Union

https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org ^ | March 27, 2019 | Fred H. Cox

[NKP_Vet]

The Hall of Fame recently dedicated at New York Uni­versity was conceived from the Ruhmes Halle in Bavaria. This structure on University Heights, on the Harlem river, in the borough of the Bronx, New York City, has, or is in­tended to have, a panel of bronze with other mementos for each of one hundred and fifty native-born Americans who have been deceased at least ten years, and who are of great character and fame in authorship, education, science, art, soldiery, statesmanship, philanthropy, or in any worthy un­dertaking. Fifty names were to have been chosen at once; but, on account of a slight change of plans, only twenty-nine have been chosen, and twenty-one more will be in 1902. The remaining one hundred names are to be chosen during the century, five at the end of each five years. The present judges of names to be honored are one hundred representa­tive American scholars in different callings. They are most­ly Northern men, although at least one judge represents each State.

[OIFVeteran]

That’s very true, but a false equivalency. The founding fathers were so embarrassed by slavery they wouldn’t even mention it in the constitution. If you read the writings of the founding fathers they realized slavery was morally wrong, even the southern ones. The only reason they accepted it is because they thought it was more important to have all the states approve the constitution to create a stronger central government then the articles of confederation had created. If they would have pushed to end slavery South Carolina and Georgia probably would have walked. Then been gobbled up by Britain or someone else. Safety in numbers. In fact the US constitution allowed states to abolish slavery if they wished, which many northern states preceded to do.

Contrast that with the Confederate constitution that uses the word slavery, I believe, at least ten times. Makes it perpetual and does not allow states the right to abolish it. Then look at what the confederate founding fathers said about slavery. Not only did they think it wasn’t morally wrong they thought it was a positive good. Hell, their Vice President even repudiated the Declaration of Independence claim that “all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights”, in his inauguration speech.

No, my FRiend, you couldn’t be more wrong about the Confederate founding fathers being similiar to the American founding fathers

[OIFVeteran]

According to the southern states it was the abolitionists and the Republican Party to begin with. Then during the course of the civil war it became a war aim of the US to free the slaves.

Though to be honest it was the slaves themselves that started it. As soon as Union armies came close to slavery areas, slaves would run away and ask for protection from the Union Army. Kinda makes a lie out of the slavocracy’s claim that all the slaves were just happy as can be picking cotton.

[DrewsMum]

What was the difference in Robert E. Lee’s actions and George Washington’s?

They both joined independence movements.

Independence from overreaching central governemnts that no longer met their needs/ interests.

Actually, the states voluntarily joined the u.s.
Great Britain birthed the colonies.
So turning from a government that birthed you is less treasonous than canceling your membership in one you voluntarily joined?

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

So in other words, the difference is that you approve of the cause for which one man abandoned his flag and uniform and fought against the US and that makes it okay, and you don’t approve of the cause for which the other abandoned his flag and uniform and fought against the US, which makes it not okay.

[rockrr]

That “overreaching central government” was dominated by southerners for most of it’s history, don’t you know. Why are you such a hater of the great contributions of the south?

[jeffersondem]

“Then during the course of the civil war it became a war aim of the US to free the slaves.”

That is an interesting comment: “to free the slaves.” I heard it so many times when I watched television.

Followup question: was this U.S. war aim to free the slaves in the Union slave states, the Confederate states, or all the states?

Full disclosure: this is a trick question. You might want to skip it altogether and let Brother Joe get you out of the jam with some gobbledygook from the First Church of the Perpetual Union.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I heard it so many times when I watched television.

I think I see the problem...

[OIFVeteran]

I think I can handle this. The Republicans, including Lincoln, wanted to see slavery put on the road to extinction. Just like most of the founding fathers, you could say they were originalist.

We can only speculate on how they would have done this because just the election of a Republican caused the southern states to rebel. During the course of this war the US used the confiscation act to take from the rebels anything that would help their war effort, including slaves. Of course, as I stated previously the slaves started removing themselves by escaping to the Union Army whenever it came close and before the confiscation act was passed.

At this time there were still some slave states in the Union. Since they were not in rebellion Lincoln and congress had no constitutional authority to free the slaves in those states. Congress, with the presidents approval and help, passed the 13th amendment. It was officially ratified by the states on Dec 6, 1865, fours months before the civil war officially ended.

I think I’ve explained it simply enough that even you can understand it.

[jeffersondem]

“No they didn't both “enshrine” slavery - only one did.”

Your quasi-denial that the term “three fifths of all other Persons” was a reference to slavery in the United States Constitution makes me wonder if all the other things you have said can be accepted at face value.

[jeffersondem]

“If the islam is fighting for world domination, who is fighting against islam?”

Israel. Start with that.

President Trump too. I hope.

[DrewsMum]

That’s like saying the U.S. should’ve ceded all forts to Great Britain at the outset of the revolutionary war since technically, the Crown built them.

So you’re swiping at the confederates for being aggressive in their war tactics.?

[jeffersondem]

“I think I’ve explained it simply enough that even you can understand it.”

Contemporaneously with the EP the “London Spectator” explained it even more simply:

“The Government liberates the enemy’s slaves as it would the enemy’s cattle, simply to weaken them in the coming conflict . . . the principle asserted is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States.

[OIFVeteran]

What part of constitutionally could not free the slaves in non rebelling states do you not understand? It’s a pretty easy concept. Or did you want Lincoln and congress to disregard the constitution and just free them? If they would have marched the US Army in to those union states and freed them all would that have made you happy? The Republicans and the President used all constitutional means they had at their disposal to free the slaves. I’m starting to think you have a comprehension problem.

Have you even read the Republican platform of 1856 or 1860? They both clearly condemn slavery.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

That would be the same London Spectator that said in 1865, “I tell you frankly that the mass of people here were glad to fight against slavery.... They felt that slavery was a great crime, a sin against human nature. They wished to purge the republic of that wickedness...”

[BroJoeK]

Bubba Ho-Tep: "...stole a P-38 Lightning in Italy and flew it to Axis territory, joined the SS and briefly worked as a propaganda broadcaster.
After the war, he was convicted of treason.
What was different between his actions and Robert E. Lee's actions?"

jeffersondem: "Your first time calling Robert E. Lee a Nazi?
Heroic restraint.
Or couldn't you get the kitchen sink detached from the wall?"

Actually, we did have a recent Nazi reference, on March 29, by DiogenesLamp while doing quality-time bonding with FLT-bird.
This is the link:

DiogenesLamp to FLT-bird on the effects of their Lost Cause message: "It's like waking up and finding out your Uncle was a Nazi who herded Jews onto the trains.
It's too horrible to accept, thus they will grasp at any straw to prevent themselves from acknowledging the enormity of what we are trying to tell them. "

So now, if we can work out the intricacies of the Lost Cause speech-code, it appears to be A-OK to say "Nazi" if it's just love-notes amongst Lost Causers, a little like the other "N" word, but for everybody else, it's streng verboten, right?

But even then we can still notice that where DiogenesLamp specifically says "Nazi", Bubba Ho-Tep referred generically to Axis territory and SS.

[DrewsMum]

Lincoln didn’t free the northern slaves because he didn’t want to live amongst blacks and neither did most northerners.

That’s the truth.

[jeffersondem]

“During World War 2, an American pilot named Martin Monti, a staunch anti-communist, stole a P-38 Lightning in Italy and flew it to Axis territory, joined the SS and briefly worked as a propaganda broadcaster. After the war, he was convicted of treason. What was different between his actions and Robert E. Lee’s actions?”

Setting aside for a moment your introduction of the SS into this thread about Lee, Virginia, and the Union . . .

George Washington was British; a subject of the King. He fought for the British. Later he fought against the British.

George Washington did opposite things at different times - but for the very same reason: he loved his country.

[jeffersondem]

“I tell you frankly that the mass of people here were glad to fight against slavery.... “

I’m not familiar with that quote.

Who is “I”?

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem to OIFVeteran: "Followup question: was this U.S. war aim to free the slaves in the Union slave states, the Confederate states, or all the states?
Full disclosure: this is a trick question.
You might want to skip it altogether and let Brother Joe get you out of the jam with some gobbledygook from the First Church of the Perpetual Union."

But there's no "trick" there and jeffersondem well knows the answer: one step at a time, Union anti-slavery war aims began in 1861 with freeing Confederate fugitive slaves -- aka "Contraband".
They expanded in 1862 to freeing all Confederate slaves, Emancipation Proclamation.
By 1864 they expanded to freeing all slaves, 13th (1865), 14th (1868) & 15th (1870) Amendments.

[jeffersondem]

“No need for a link, I remember exactly what I posted, a metaphor for someone who flipped from Federalist to anti-Federalist, joining his friend & mentor in concocting policies to defeat the new US Constitution.”

Still, the post about Founding Fathers as yapping dogs was a disturbing read. Do you remember when it was posted and by whom?