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The Shroud of Turin, Authenticated Again
National Review ^ | 04/16/2016 | Myra Adams

Posted on 04/17/2016 6:27:48 AM PDT by SeekAndFind



TOPICS: History; Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: catholic; christ; christian; christianity; easter; jesus; medievalhoax; myraadams; nationalreview; orthodox; oviedo; resurrection; shroud; shroudofturin; sudarium; sudariumofoviedo; turin
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To: odawg
Jesus was not a Nazarite because he drank wine. He was not an Essene — won’t find it.

Who told you either of those non-facts? Drinking of wine was part of the Jewish religion because the fruit of the grape could not be kept long with out fermenting. Period. There is evidence he was an Essene.

I have studied the Shroud of Turin for over 40 years. Your claim that the Shroud of Turin image has it's hands on its knees is ludicrous. The image's hands are crossed over the groin are, a long distance away from the knees. Under computer enhancement, it is possible to discern the Man on the Shroud was circumsized (per Barrie Schwortz, the principal photographer of the Shroud or Turin Research Project (STURP), and nowhere near his knees. The legs were somewhat bent from being on the Cross, and being in Rigor Mortis. The mage was NOT in a sitting position. SHEESH! If you think the Shroud image is of a man with his hands on his knees because he's's a seated position, you literally do not know what you are talking about!



41 posted on 04/17/2016 2:26:25 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue..)
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To: Flag_This
You’re assuming the body was perfectly flat.

I don't have to assume. The back image shows the shoulders flat

42 posted on 04/17/2016 2:32:07 PM PDT by Poison Pill
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To: Swordmaker

Have they done a blood type test on the Veronica’s veil that is not at the Vatican. I can never remember how to spell the town


43 posted on 04/17/2016 2:34:06 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: odawg
The Jews, when they prepared a body, wrapped it around with cloth, etc., and did that with Jesus, except his face, for lack of time. His body was covered up.

You really know nothing about First Century Jewish burial customs, do you? You are conflating EGYPTIAN burial methods with what is written quite extensively in the Mishnah and Talmud about how a Jewish Burial is to be accomplished, requiring burial before sundown on the day of death of a Jewish person. . . which literally does not allow much time to swaddle a body after cleaning, anointing, etc.. . before the sun drops below the horizon. Jesus died at about 3 PM, and sundown was at around 7:30. That meant that his friends had to get permission to take him off the cross, permission to bury him instead of leaving him to the vagaries of weather and wild animals (the usual practice), gather the spices, persuade the Roman soldiers they had permission, get the body down, pulling the nails, etc. All before 7:30 at which time Sabbath started. . . and no work could be done and the helpers had to be ritually clean before then. That's a LOT to be done in a short amount of time. They probably did not get started until at least 4PM. . . and they had to walk everywhere. Learn something about the customs before you claim something you obviously know very little about.

The one thing they WOULD have covered would have been his face, the one thing you say they did not. Again, Sheesh!

44 posted on 04/17/2016 2:36:56 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue..)
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To: RummyChick

I’m pretty sure it is the same blood type on the veil as the shroud. DNA and stuff I don’t know.


45 posted on 04/17/2016 2:38:53 PM PDT by 21twelve (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2185147/posts It is happening again.)
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To: Poison Pill
In addition to resolving the issues of image size differences between the front and back and the head/body it resolves the negative image issue.

I also explains why the physical anomaly of the hands being crossed over the groin appears on the shroud, which the human body can't do lying on it's back with it's shoulder blades touching the ground.

You do realize that you are discussing from an ignorant position the single most examined and research object in history, by people working in their field of expertise, who have NOT FOUND these "issues of image size" and other problems the skeptics keep bringing up, because they simply do not exist. I am referring to anatomists, medical forensic pathologists, medical doctors, Anthropologists, photography, light physics, Chemistry, Pyrolosys, etc. who have degrees in these scientific fields, as well as skilled artists who also do not find these problems you list. The people have Doctoral degrees and PhDs in the fields in which they are studying the Shroud, applying their fields of expertise to what they are looking at and their specialized knowledge of anatomy, pathology, medicine, anthropology, art, art history, publishing their findings in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

On the other hand the people bringing these issues up include a Geologist, a failed stage magician, and a guy with a degree in English Literature. . . working completely outside any field of expertise they may have, if any, throwing brickbats about things they know nothing about, and using a load of ad hominem attack arguments against the scientists on the other sides, calling them "pseudoscientists," when they are anything but that.

Their, and your claim, that the hands cannot be crossed over the groin, is demonstrably false. I can do it easily. So can most people.

46 posted on 04/17/2016 2:48:26 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue..)
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To: RummyChick
I want to know why this guy can tell us blood type but doesn’t tell us about the DNA.

Blood type is an easy test, DNA is not. Blood types can be tested by using specific Anti-gens. DNA requires a much more sophisticated test and requires the chains be unbroken. the Anti-gens will be there regardless of broken DNA strands or not.

47 posted on 04/17/2016 2:50:57 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue..)
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To: Poison Pill
Try this. Lay down on the ground, like a body in repose with your shoulders flat against the floor. Now, keeping your shoulders against the floor, cross your palms over your groin.

Try this. . . put your body in rigor mortis after hanging on a cross with your body hanging down. Now do it.

48 posted on 04/17/2016 2:52:21 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue..)
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To: 21twelve

There are two supposed veils. Town of
Manapoello..or. something like that


49 posted on 04/17/2016 2:57:29 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: Poison Pill; shroudie
I also explains why the physical anomaly of the hands being crossed over the groin appears on the shroud, which the human body can't do lying on it's back with it's shoulder blades touching the ground.

According to all the science it was not lying flat on its back, That's more obfuscation from the skeptics who just don't bother to follow the science, and choose to ignore the research and peer-reviewed research.

How certain are we that the man on the shroud is in rigor mortis?
From ShroudStory.com, by Shroudie (A fellow Freeper), Dan Porter.

image

A reader, a student at Georgetown University in Washington, D. C. writes:

Stephen Jones bases much of his argument on the belief that the TSM [=Turin Shroud Man] is in rigor mortis. That may not be true. Michael M. Baden, a board-certified forensic pathologist who was at one time the Chief Medical Examiner for New York City, examined the shroud and found no evidence of rigor.

According to Bernard Ruffin in his 1999 book The Shroud of Turin, Baden didn’t say it exactly that way:

Although Baden insisted that he could not tell from his examination of the Shroud photographs whether rigor mortis was present, other medical experts who had looked at the image were able to discern this stiffening of the limbs which is a result of postmortem chemical changes.

It is subtle, but there is a distinct difference in implied meaning between “found no evidence” and “could not tell . . . whether rigor mortis was present”

Joe Nickell, quotes Baden directly, "If I had to go into a courtroom, I could not say there was rigor.”  That seems to me to carry more uncertainty than the phrase “found no evidence.”

So, no; as I see it Baden did not rule out rigor mortis. That may be a moot point, however. The fact of the matter is that many highly qualified people see good evidence of rigor in the photographs of the shroud. Even so, because this is a matter of opinion, there is a good question in what the Georgetown student writes: How certain are we that the man on the shroud is in a state of rigor mortis?

Let’s look at what others have said starting with William Meacham:

. . . Under the direction of Yves Delage, professor of comparative anatomy, a study was undertaken of the physiology and pathology of the apparent body imprint and of the possible manner of its formation. The image was found to be anatomically flawless down to minor details: the characteristic features of rigor mortis, wounds, and blood flows provided conclusive evidence to the anatomists that the image was formed by direct or indirect contact with a corpse, not painted onto the cloth or scorched thereon by a hot statue (two of the current theories). On this point all medical opinion since the time of Delage has been unanimous (notably Hynek 1936; Vignon 1939; Moedder 1949; Caselli 1950; La Cava 1953; Sava 1957; Judica-Cordiglia 1961; Barbet 1963 ; Bucklin 1970; Willis, in Wilson 1978; Cameron 1978; Zugibe, in Murphy 1981). This line of evidence is of great importance in the question of authenticity and is briefly reviewed below.

Rigor mortis is seen in the stiffness of the extremities, the retraction of the thumbs (discussed below), and the distention of the feet. It has frozen an attitude of death while hanging by the arms; the rib cage is abnormally expanded, the large pectoral muscles are in an attitude of extreme inspiration (enlarged and drawn up toward the collarbone and arms), the lower abdomen is distended, and the epigastric hollow is drawn in sharply. The protrusion of the femoral quadriceps and hip muscles is consistent with slow death by hanging, during which the victim must raise his body by exertion of the legs in order to exhale.

Fred Zugibe wrote:

Moreover, most forensic experts agree that the Man of the Shroud shows evidence of rigor mortis because of the bent knees and absence of a neck, therefore indicating that the crucified was dead for some time before being taken down from the cross.

Robert Bucklin wrote:

The body appears to be in a state of rigor mortis which is evidenced by an overall stiffness as well as specific alterations in the appearance of the lower extremities from the posterior aspect. The imprint of the right calf is much more distinct than that of the left indicating that at the time of death the left leg was rotated in such a way that the sole of the left foot rested on the ventral surface of the right foot with resultant slight flexion of the left knee. That position was maintained after rigor mortis had developed.

Barbara Faccini, Emmanuel M. Carreira, Giulio Fanti, Jose de Palacios, Jose Delfin Villalain wrote:

The asymmetrical bending of knees ( and ß angles), the unnatural bending of ankles ( angle) leading to an almost flat position of the right footprint, and the absence of flattening in the buttocks area (which is typical in a lying subject) are remarkable and only compatible with an extreme rigidity in a human body.

image

This position has been achieved most probably on the cross, where the head was freely hanging down ( angle); it has been fixed by rigor mortis and maintained after deposition, but for the arms,

Keep in mind that about 100lbs of spices and herbs were packed under, around, and about the body, supporting it at various places. It was also the custom as described in the Mishnah to bind the ankles, wrist, and around the face with either cords or cloths to keep the limbs from flopping akimbo and the jaw from gaping open when rigor passed, which would tend to retain the position the body was place in when positioned in the niche in the tomb.

50 posted on 04/17/2016 3:33:46 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue..)
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To: Swordmaker

“The one thing they WOULD have covered would have been his face, the one thing you say they did not. Again, Sheesh!”

And you want to accuse me of not knowing whereof I speak.

Did John know what he was talking about?

John 19 —

“So he came and took away His body. 39 Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about seventy-five pounds.[d] 40 Then they took the body of Jesus and wrapped it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. 41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb in which no one had ever been buried. 42 So because of the Jewish Day of Preparation, and since the tomb was nearby, they buried Jesus there.”

Because of time constraints, the only part they did not wrap was the face, and they covered it with a cloth.

Some people think that the burial wraps had formed into a cocoon, because of the procedures they used, and that was why, when Peter entered the tomb, he immediately “believed”. The cocoon was still intact.


51 posted on 04/17/2016 3:39:14 PM PDT by odawg
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To: Swordmaker

The back image shows the shoulders flat and the front image shows the palms crossed. The human body can’t do that. Rigor mortis makes a body stiff for about a day. It doesn’t make the arms a foot longer.


52 posted on 04/17/2016 3:42:05 PM PDT by Poison Pill
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To: Poison Pill

People do tend to think that once rigor mortis sets in that the body remains rigid.


53 posted on 04/17/2016 3:44:17 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Swordmaker

Part of the Nazarite vow was that they could not drink wine. Nothing to do with fermentation or storing grape juice. Jesus was a Nazarene.

“There is evidence he was an Essene.”

When you step away from the Bible, you can believe a lot that is not true. Jesus being an Essene is found nowhere in the Bible, so I am not worried about that.


54 posted on 04/17/2016 3:45:15 PM PDT by odawg
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To: RegulatorCountry

Only for a period of time:

After death, respiration in organisms ceases, depleting the corpse of oxygen used in the making of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). When oxygen is no longer present the body may continue to produce ATP via anaerobic glycolysis. When the body’s glycogen is depleted, the ATP concentration diminishes and the body enters rigor mortis.[2] ATP is required to cause separation of the cross-bridges during relaxation.[3] Additionally, calcium enters the cytosol after death. Calcium is released into the cytosol due to the deterioration of the sarcoplasmic reticulum. Also, additional calcium enters the cytosol from the extracellular fluid due to the breakdown of the sarcolemma. The calcium activates the formation of myosin-actin cross-bridging. Once calcium is introduced into the cytosol, it binds to the troponin of thin filaments, which causes the troponin-tropomyosin complex to change shape and allow the myosin heads to bind to the active sites of actin proteins.[1] In rigor mortis myosin heads continue binding with the active sites of actin proteins via adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and the muscle is unable to relax until further enzyme activity degrades the complex.[3]

Normal relaxation would occur by replacing ADP with ATP, which would destabilize the myosin-actin bond and break the cross-bridge.[1] However, as it is absent, there must be a breakdown of muscle tissue by enzymes (endogenous or bacterial) during decomposition. As part of the process of decomposition, the myosin heads are degraded by the enzymes, allowing the muscle contraction to release and the body to relax.[4][5] Decomposition of the myofilaments occurs forty-eight to sixty hours after the peak of rigor mortis which occurs approximately twelve hours after death.[1]

Source: Wikipedia


55 posted on 04/17/2016 3:47:30 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Swordmaker

I’m not at all surprised if a good, and plausible image of Jesus exists. That is a witness of Him.

How did it get there, and what should it mean to us, might be different questions.

I think we don’t want to lower our regard of Jesus into a realm that better deserves the name of superstition. Meeting Jesus, or encountering a witness of Jesus, should move us to act on the level of receiving some impetus of the Holy Spirit. It isn’t a rabbit’s foot to rub for our own wishes that don’t match up with His plan. If we aren’t already disposed to be reverent, the thoughts we might get out of such an encounter might be vulgar, rather than exalted.


56 posted on 04/17/2016 3:50:54 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: trisham

How such a thing might play out in the case of Jesus’ temporary death could be anybody’s guess. This is the King of the laws of physics Himself. At some point the decomposition would have to stop and the matter begin to knit back together in a way that wasn’t seen since the days of creation. It might not even qualify to be called a physical event, but something like a supra-physical event.


57 posted on 04/17/2016 3:55:15 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

We may never know while here on this earth exactly what happened, but that is a part of life.


58 posted on 04/17/2016 4:00:02 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

The Lord has put it sufficiently close to us to get it within the realm of choosing to believe on Him or to forever scoff.

I am, I believe, past the point of being lost in scoffing. Heaven itself will certainly have sufficient room for the details. When Jesus said “hold My wine and watch this” it wasn’t for some groaner of a redneck joke. It was for an act of love to floor us. I try, sometimes miserably failing, to be a mirror to this.


59 posted on 04/17/2016 4:04:54 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I hear you, friend.


60 posted on 04/17/2016 4:06:51 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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