The Ancient Battle Generals Still Love To Copy (Cannae)

Daily Beast ^ | January 27, 2016 | Robert Bateman

[C19fan]

I went to the most famous battlefield in Western History, and had a surprise. Not a good one.

It is a stomp, well off the path, to get to Cannae.

The main train lines in Italy run up and down the coasts. Going inland, particularly in southeast Italy, is somewhat more episodic. My train had two cars. At the fourth stop, “Battle”, I got off.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

St. Louis Cathedral, Carthage

With what appears to be minarets.

[Pollster1]

Thermopylae is not like it was then, at least not according to reports from 2500 years ago. It’s wide instead of a narrow passage, which pretty much eliminates any feel for what it was like in the battle. I’d basically say that, no, it’s not worth going far out of your way unless you’re in the neighborhood anyways.

[Billthedrill]

Great stuff. The battle was all about maneuver, but the war was all about logistics. It is a minor miracle how Hannibal managed to keep the thing going for a decade with minimal reinforcement, up and down the Italian peninsula with a slowly dwindling number of troops. But the notion that the Romans didn't win any battles is mistaken. The pivotal one of the war was not at Cannae, but at the Metauro river some ten years later, when the relief force under Hasdrubal that would have reinvigorated Hannibal's effort was soundly defeated in the Battle of the Metaurus. After that it was just a matter of time before Hannibal was recalled.

[Pollster1]

I WANTED to go, but if I recall correctly, I did not go because the sea claimed the site hundreds of years ago. Am I wrong?

Those who count on tourism there would say the sea altered the site rather than claimed it, and some of the land has since been reshaped/reclaimed artificially. There is level land between the mountains and the sea, but I don't think it's a reliable match to the terrain at the time of the battle. It's more a case of visiting the general vicinity of the battle than standing on the exact rocks the Spartans stood on.

Note: The inscription under the statue of Leonidas is, of course, "MOLON LABE".

[bert]

——Holding this collection of warriors from across the Mediterranean meant the application not just of money, but persona charisma and leadership.-——

Hmmm...... persona, charisma and leadership. those are the characteristics America is looking for and has discovered in Donald Trump

[SunkenCiv]

:’) My pleasure.

[SunkenCiv]

The sites of battles change, just like the local landscape changes, and surprisingly rapidly in the face of strong rains, big spring thaws, and whatnot. If I were to travel to sites of battles, Leuctra would be #1 on my list -- that's where the Thebans annihilated the monstrous Spartan pederasty/slaveholding regime, ended the Peloponnesian War, freed the enslaved victims of the hideous Spartans, and became the dominant power in Greece -- not for all that long, Macedonia conquered Greece, then the Romans.

Victory Monument erected by Epaminondas of Thebes at Leuctra, partially restored (Battle of Leuctra, 371 BC)

[justa-hairyape]

Elephant troops work good against the Mongols. Just conquered India to acquire some and am getting ready for an 11 army Mongol force that may slip down the southern coast of the Caspian Sea. Everything was going great until the Georgians attacked with over 10 armies of front line troops. Do not know where they got the money. Playing as Kingdom of Jerusalem. My ally is Armenia. They defeated the Turks and Byzantians. The Georgians have now paid the price of attacking and lost 4 cities. Some epic battles where one battalion of elephants played a key role. Now have two front line armies ready for Mongol forces. Both with two elephant battalions. Only Halberds and Javelins are effective against the elephants. And of course trebuchets and catapults. The speed of the Elephants is a killer. Oh well. Lots of fun while the real world falls apart. Lol.

[SteveH]

i am curious about the scorched earth policy usage by the Romans in South Italy. Where was that (if anyone knows)? TIA...

[Bull Snipe]

The victor at Zama was Publius Cornelius Scipio aka Scipio Africanus. He had been a junior officer at the Battle of Cannae

[Bull Snipe]

Hannibal found about the defeat of his brothers army at Metaurus, when his brother, Hasdrubal’s, head was thrown over the wall into Hannibal’s camp

[BradyLS]

They defeated Hannibal over time without directly engaging him until they were outright winning the War.

That's how the Coalition wound up beating Napoleon, too.

[BradyLS]

As I understand, the sea has receded from the ancient shores that made Thermopylae such a narrow pass between the mountains and the sea.

[Bigg Red]

:)

[KC Burke]

Good book out that tells “the rest of the story.”

The Ghost’s of Cannae.

It tells what happened to the abandoned soldiers that were lead into that famous loss. Scipio Africanus comes along... and well, that is the rest of the story.

[Pollster1]

On further reflection, I’d modify my comment. Thermopylae was a big letdown when I was there, but probably out of proportion and because of my expectations rather than its merits. Before posting, I should have thought more about whether I was glad I went than about how I felt when I saw it.

I am glad I went while I was already in the area. I’d recommend Thermopylae as a small part of another trip - better than Spanish Rock in Bermuda, or even Mount Rushmore, but nowhere near the value of Gettysburg, where everything is close enough to the original that you can visualize the battle. A historian could spend weeks at Gettysburg and be intellectually engaged every moment; with Thermopylae, an hour or two would be an accomplishment.

[KC_Lion]

Leuctra would be #1 on my list -- that's where the Thebans annihilated the monstrous Spartan pederasty/slaveholding regime, ended the Peloponnesian War, freed the enslaved victims of the hideous Spartans, and became the dominant power in Greece -- not for all that long, Macedonia conquered Greece, then the Romans.

I hate to be Johnny Rain Cloud SunkenCiv, But the Sacred Band of Thebes, that Defeated the Spartans and Was Annihilated by Phillip of Macedon... was well.....

..I will let Plato Explain: "And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their beloved, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

[dsc]

“The Romans kept him out of southern Italy by using a scorched-Earth approach to create a barrier, and alas they never went back to fix it (no one has to the current day).”

Interesting. What are the signs? No villages? Fallow fields?

[SunkenCiv]

Yeah, they were a bunch of homos as well (assuming the tale is correct; Plato's real name was Aristocles, but Socrates gave him the nickname Plato, which means "broad shoulders" or thereabouts, sounds fishy), but they didn't enslave their neighbors or have that top-to-bottom totalitarian, terrorist, slavery-based state.

[SunkenCiv]

Probably erosion, but y’know, it’s been while since I’d read about it, and I’m at a loss as to where it was written. Probably in an *actual book* because I just went a-googlin’ and found little. Here’s the author of the strategy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabius_Maximus