Posted on 12/31/2009 3:59:47 PM PST by majstoll
On numerous Internet forums, and some email lists, gun owners periodically report being hassled by police when pulled over for routine traffic infractions. . . . But often there is a common thread to these stories – the dorky gun owner brought up the gun thing all on her own! . . .
(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...
This is a traffic violation. Operating a motor vehicle. A cop (or "peace officer," in your parlance) has caught you red-handed pulling a boner. They've caught me just often enough to make me a more careful driver, and that, I assume, was their design and the purpose of the violation. UNLESS it was to collect money, and I have been stopped in one such "fundraiser," a speed trap clearly designed to rake in bucks.
If the person has a record and shows evidence of being lethally dangerous, then it's not an average traffic stop, and in any case, I submit that any bad guy would LIE and the cop knows it, so why would he even ask the question unless he had further purposes in mind?
I know you choose to tangle with "the only possible reason ... woudl be to try to harass you or steal it," but remember that yarddog added "Sometimes just to show his authority." Yarddog is right. If your old mother was suddenly faced with the inevitable prospect of having to drive all the way across the continent, YOU would advocate laws that would require her to either make that trip unarmed OR risk being tagged for life with a felon charge? Get some perspective. This is a traffic stop.
Yarddog is right.
I for one am calling absolute BULLSH*T on your charge that yarddog is "anti police." That's pathetic and way scary coming from someone who may be a law enforcement person.
Required in Texas. Was stopped last Sunday, just getting into 4th at about 80 on the Harley when I met a State Trooper. Put it in neutral and had found a good place to stop before he got turned around. “Sir, I have a CHL and I am armed” is the way I start my conversations with LEOs. Don’t know if it was Army Retired ID card or TxDOT employee that got me the warning (and I don’t care....)
Remember the length of time detained, folks, along with whether or not cuffed, why, whether or not any brandishing took place, etc. And remember to call the Public Integrity Section in D.C., if there was public corruption or officious wrongdoing—especially if the civil rights crimes took place in the middle or southern half of the Midwest. ;-)
[The comment above was part of a discussion of public policies and was not legal advice. I’m not an attorney, although I’ve helped in some of the ongoing efforts against public corruption. If you need legal advice, contact a properly licensed attorney.]
For the purpose of this discussion, I am not advocating any Peace Officer to arbitrarily ask anyone if they have a gun. Personally, I do not believe in most gun laws we have. Free men should arm themselves. I even go as far to say if all the airline passengers on 9/11 were armed, 9/11 would not have happened. I believe in taking away criminals, not guns.
What I am also saying is that when a Peace Officer makes a traffic stop, he is investigating a crime, minor as it is, and and in doing so has the right to check to see if the offender is armed. I am not talking about random "are you armed" checks.
You said to me.. "YOU would advocate laws that would require her to either make that trip unarmed OR risk being tagged for life with a felon charge? Get some perspective."
I never said such nonsense. An armed society is a polite society. Its a mean world out there, you had better protect yourself, and your family. How you could derive that BS you accused me of due to my prior statement is beyond me.
But when a Trooper nails a guy wide open for going 80 on a Harley (sounds like a blast! Not being stopped, I mean, but going 80 on the bike) -- and he'd have no self respect if he didn't at least pull you over! -- even knowing you have a CC permit, I don't see how any part or parcel of that enterprise is concerned with forcing you decide whether to lie or speak truthfully (because that's what it really comes down to) from the start as to whether or not you happen to be carrying at that moment. The only reason he stopped you was because you were speeding; he knows it, you know it, and even though the "requirements" claim otherwise, it has ZERO relation to CC status.
Cops are there for our protection, not our harassment. I like to think that the Trooper would never even have mentioned it had you not said anything -- MY kind of LEO.
That said -- there is no justification to search anyone in a routine traffic violation just because the cop doesn't like the person's attitude. The reason: bad cops or well-meaning nanny-type cops or nosy cops or aggressive cops can spark a real bad attitude quickly from a lot of people who are perfectly good, normal, productive folks.
Personally, I think that the mentality in back of an institutional credo that says a traffic stop "is a criminal investigation" is on a power trip, but that's just me. Cops shouldn't be checking for weapons unless they have damned good probable cause to believe that people are not just angry and ticked, but deadly hostile. If the cop hears the answer "no" and doesn't believe it, your way of thinking gives him the right to search. Period.
Slippery slope.
#2 on IMAO'S Top 10 Gun Safety Tips: "No matter how excited you are about buying your first gun, do not run around yelling 'I have a gun! I have a gun!'"
100% Spot on correct. Even though FL is not a duty to inform state, nonetheless, I have a standard spiel I go through for checkpoints like the aforementioned sobriety or insurance stops: The cop comes to the window and I put my hands on the wheel and utter the following in a firm and clear voice:
Officer, I'm an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and I have a Concealed Carry Permit for the State of Florida. I am currently lawfully armed. I'm carrying an XD45 compact, IWB strong side, behind my right hip. Then I wait for further instructions. Never any problems. Cops DO appreciate the spiel, too. Sometimes I get such positive feedback I wind up extending an invitation to join us at a local IDPA match.
He ran my tags before he left his car so he had the reg’d owner. If he ran that he’d see CHL. I stopped to help a girl who had run over a piece of metal which had gotten stuck under her car. Trooper stopped to see if all was ok and saw my gun because of my position but didn’t say anything. I saw him look and said I had CHL, he said I know. He had run both our tags before approaching.
Cops have the most dangerous job in America. If I can do anything to make them calmer/happy I will. No ass-whoppin’ from the PO-lice ever started with “Yes, sir” or “No, sir”.
I asked five police officers and got three different answers.
1. Dont say anything until the police officers asks.
2. Tell the police right off so there isnt any misunderstandings.
3. Dont say anything at all unless you are ordered to get out of the car.
The other two wanted to know what kind of pistol I carried. When I told them either a Colt Commander or a M92 Beretta, they said go with the Colt.
And then move VERY slowly to get your permit.
Earlier, I posted that in the State of Texas, you were required to tell any officer who approached you that you had a CHL, if you were carrying a concealed weapon.
I was wrong. There law was changed in 2009. CHL holders no longer are required to inform officers that they have a CHL unless asked. The article at the link talks about this and about some of the problems that have resulted in Ohio from a provision that required citizens to notify officers.
As a MO Resident:
Exactly why I roll my drivers window down a few inches, lock all doors and remain quite, hands on the wheel, dome light on at night, radio and engine off, flashers on. I do NOT want LEOs looking into my vehicle any more than casual passerby’s can do (the extent of you authority w/o permission or warrant or at worst, “probable casue”. If you ask me to leave my vehicle, I will comply, but will roll the window up and lock it as I exit-it ain’t personal, but it is my property, I will insure it is protected from unauthorized access-or search as the case may be. Get a warrant! (LEOs never “incriminate” folks, right?)
I comply with all intructions, if asked if I am carrying (per MO law) I advise, if not asked, I would not volunteer anything.
While I appreciate your situation as a cop, my rights to privacy, freedom from unreasonable search etc are inviolable.
As you mentioned, a traffic stop is a detention, not an arrest.
If you ask me if you can search, I will answer in a friendly but firmly “Not unless you have a warrant”-get one if you feel so motivated, I have time. If you decide my refusal equals probable cause, you’ll likley see a note from my attorney-however, I will not resist you, as laws allowing righteous defense against illegal action have been mostly done away with last century.
You are certainly correct-every traffic stop is an unknown risk and potentially dangerous/hostile encounter-to everyone involved. I trust God, all others are suspect. I do not know the officers intent either, however, I am innocent until proven guilty, officers are under greater scrutiny of performance; as it should be-you have a gun and a badge, and you work for the politicians, not me. (unfortunate but reality).
Don’t get me wrong, I work with LEOs, local, state, DOD/ Federal and even international, I understand, but as a citizen (not a “civilian”), I am your greatest responsibility.
I assume if I am driving a vehicle registered to myself, you know I have a CCW endorsement, but not whether I am carrying one-so YOU must ask, hey, you initiated the stop.
I am not required to answer any question that incriminates myself(and they all do, right?)-so if you ask if “do you have anything I should know about?” You are fishing; ask me if I have a concealed firearm, and I’ll answer as the law requires. If I have other arms in my vehicle not on my person, they are not included in the CCW aspect and are not of any interest.
All this is pretty moot to me personally, as I have not been nor intend to be stopped for any violations since 1991. I am, after all, a member of the most law-abiding population group in the US, well ahead of LEOs.
CCW Instructor, NRA Instructor, Army retired etc.
Native Born American Citizen, stakeholder in the USA and MO.
Molon Labe & Be safe!
Well stated. Thanks for your input.
You sound like my kinda hero, stopping to help a stranded gal. I have a policy about cops: every time I see one, I say a quiet prayer for that cop, be he highway patrol, city cop, or sherriff. I ask that God keep that cop safe, guide him, and bless him with skill and good timing. I understand that cops put their lives on the line every day for me.
They don't have the most dangerous job in America -- there are others statistically more dangerous, such as commercial fishing, which is my background. The risk my dad, brothers, and many friends took every season was far higher even than a cop in L.A. Every year of my childhood and well into my adulthood, at least one person I knew or knew of didn't come home. Just a few weeks ago, a relative lost her husband in a fishing accident out of my home town. So the "dangerous job" thing doesn't impress me; what DOES impress me is that those guys put their lives on the line for ME. It's why I say a heartfelt prayer when I see one -- it's become habit.
Every time (plural!!!) I've gotten in trouble with the cops, I richly deserved it and brought it on myself. Absolutely. Every time I've been caught red-handed speeding or some such dumb thing and been let off with a friendly and well-directed warning (which has happened a few times!!!), I have been grateful and made to drive better and wiser.
All those things don't change the fact that the principles of conservatism and the 2nd amendment and common sense mean that whether or not a law-abiding citizen on a routine traffic stop is carrying a permitted concealed weapon, is NONE of the cops business. A cop's job is to SERVE us and to PROTECT us -- not "protect us from ourselves," but to protect us from the bad guys.
GregoTX, you still are all wrong for calling Yarddog "anti police." Yarddog is no more anti-police than I am. Guys who are too proud and stubborn to admit when they're wrong are a pain; when those guys happen to be cops, they're a liability to my freedom.
GregoTX, you need to read this. Is this guy "anti police" too???? I'd sure love to see you take back that ugly and false charge you made against yarddog. I'd have more respect for you, and I KNOW you're worthy of that respect.
Just so folks know the MO law pertaining to announcing your CCW status:
(begin cite)
Duty to carry and display endorsement, penalty for violation.
RsMO 571.121. 1. Any person issued a concealed carry endorsement pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall carry the concealed carry endorsement at all times the person is carrying a concealed firearm and shall display the concealed carry endorsement upon the request of any peace officer. Failure to comply with this subsection shall not be a criminal offense but the concealed carry endorsement holder may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed thirty-five dollars. (end cite)
Note that the failure to advise IS NOT A CRIME, but rather a citation (minor non-traffic offense).
Know YOUR STATE’S FIREARMS/CCW LAWs, be familiar with other states if you travel-—
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
