Natural Born Criteria

Vanity

[MissTickly]

Consider this thought:

If we can get the folks in Hawaii to say that they determine ‘a person’ is a Natural Born Citizen in part by looking at BOTH parents citizenship, we know Obama lied about who his real father is. Or was mistaken.

Interesting and not impossible to have them answer that question as long as it is phrased like this:

“How does the department determine a person is a Natural-Born American Citizen? What criteria does the Director use to determine that status?”

You cannot refer to Obama, at all, when you ask the question. That would violate statute so they couldn't answer.

I implore people to try to get this answer from Janice Okubo.

If he lied about his father or was mistaken, the name on the ballots in all 50 states may not be his REAL NAME. And of course it would mean lots of other things, too.

[Spaulding]

Just another comment from a non-lawyer: While laws can't change the constitution, Title 8 does not refer to “natural born citizens.” It refers to “Citzens of the United States at birth.” The two are not equal. If one follows your assertion to its implications, anchor babies are natural born citizens. The reasoning, well explained in Law of Nations, for insisting on natural born citizenship for only the president and his backup is the presumption that allegiance is passed to the children from the parents. Obama is a poster boy for why that is important. Obama’s supposed dad was a Muslim Marxist whose goal was the overthrow of the young Christian democracy in Kenya for alignment with the USSR and Cuba.

'Citizen at Birth" means exactly what it says. That is a law. But being natural born cannot be granted by law. It is what the Law of Nations said it was: born on the soil and of parents who are its citizens. Citzens have all sorts of rights. Only natural born citizens can be president. Most citizens are natural born citizens. Obama may or may not be a citizen. Jindal is, but isn't natural born because his parents weren't when he was born. McCain can't be made natural born by law - which seems unfair, but was put in the constitution for our safety as a nation.

[trumandogz]

As I understand it “The Laws of Nations” is not a governing document.

[greeneyes]

citizen at birth = natural born citizen (NBC)

The terminology citizen at birth has not been definitively determined to mean NBC as it pertains to eligibility for the president.

From the US State Dept. Foreign affairs manual in section regarding eligibility for president:

It has “never been determined definitively”..”whether a person who aquired US Citizenship by birth abroad is a natural born citizen.”

“The fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a person for constitutional purposes.”

The more I look into the legal aspects of this, the more I think the Birth Certificate may serve the same purpose as the organ grinder’s monkey - distraction.

It is very possible that Obama is not eligible simply because his father was a British citizen. I am still researching that aspect.

[trumandogz]

The Idea of the Kenyan birth is a dead end.

And until a Court rules that one must have two parents that were citizens at birth in order to be an NBC, Obama is an NBC.

And there is no way that a court, especially the SCOTUS is going to define NBC as only being persons who were born on US soil and have two US parents.

No way, not after the 14th Amendment.

[Spaulding]

Danae, you are on the right track. But FEDERAL, to me, implies laws. The term Natural Born Citizen comes from our constitution, and can't be changed except by amendment, and that has been tried at least two dozen times. We don't really need Obama’s birth certificate, and Hawaii couldn't confer natural born citizenship on Obama, only nature can, and that was the whole idea.

Born of the soil and of parents who are its citizens is one of several statements of what it means to be natural born.
Don't get wrapped up in the variations which arose because of translations from the French of Law of Nations. You may see ‘Native born Citizen’ or ‘indigene’. They are the same. Citizen by birth is not the same. It is the meaning from Law of Nations, and only that meaning which counts. You can find it in Vattel’s Law of Nations, Chapter XIX, used by our founders as their principle reference in writing both the Declaration and our Constitution. How do I know? Because John Jay and Benjamin Franklin both said so. How do I know natural born citizen came from Vattel? Because Chief Justice John Marshall said so in The Venus, 12 U.S. 253 (1814). He said that Vattel’s definition was authoritative and quoted from The Law of Nations.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/12/253/case.html

Obama’s people want us to be confused. We needn't be. Because Obama Senior, Barry is ineligible to be president. It sounds fantastic, but Obama is a real radical, who said openly that while he thought there were some provisions in the constitution, it didn't let him do what he wanted to do. Law firms with which he has long been associated have written legal briefs and campaigned actively for another try and amending Article II Section 1 (search Sarah Herlihy, Chicago-Kent Law Review, Feb 2006, Amending the Natural Born ...). The interview was done in 2001 when Barry may have been lamenting the chances of overcoming his natural born problem to run for president.

[markomalley]

The term Natural Born Citizen comes from our constitution, and can't be changed except by amendment, and that has been tried at least two dozen times.

Actually, the First Congress (1789-1790) passed Naturalization Act of 1790 which said the following:

…the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens…

Now this law has been repealed. The current Act in place is the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (as amended, particularly in 1986), but the point is that the term "natural born" has been defined by Congress from the beginning.

Does any of that mean the Ø is qualified to be President by virtue of citizenship? Well, show me an actual birth certificate (either Kenyan or Hawaiian) and I'll know one way or the other.

[Uncle Chip]

What’s wrong with the definition that the Senate used in Senate Resolution 511 — both parents had to be American citizens and birth on American soil? The Senate Resolution may not have the force of law but it is a studied determination based upon just exactly what the Senate, including Obama, decided that a natural born citizen was.

[DavidFarrar]

I think this approach does have merit. By statute, Ms. Okubo cannot reveal any information that hasn’t been revealed by Obama, himself, in his COLB. Therefore, Ms. Okubo did not break the law when she revealed Obama was born in Hawaii — this information was already in the public domain by virtue of Obama’s COLB.

Now all that has to be done is ask her if Barack Obama Sr. is Barack Obama Jr’s biological father?

If she doesn’t answer, that would mean Barack Obama Sr. wasn’t junior’s biological father. If she does answer Barack Obama Sr. was junior’s biological father, this point has been verified.

This may even be the way Obama Jr. has decided to answer his critics as it relates to his birth certificate and thus, to his qualifications to be President — piecemeal, one item at a time.

Please, please note, however; this will not solve the issue. Nothing can possibly do that at this point without a thorough examination of the document by forensic document experts, but it’s a start, and it will show intent.

ex animo
davidfarrar

[Danae]

Spaulding sent me this, I think he is right.

Danae, you are on the right track. But FEDERAL, to me, implies laws. The term Natural Born Citizen comes from our constitution, and can’t be changed except by amendment, and that has been tried at least two dozen times. We don’t really need Obama’s birth certificate, and Hawaii couldn’t confer natural born citizenship on Obama, only nature can, and that was the whole idea.

Born of the soil and of parents who are its citizens is one of several statements of what it means to be natural born.
Don’t get wrapped up in the variations which arose because of translations from the French of Law of Nations. You may see ‘Native born Citizen’ or ‘indigene’. They are the same. Citizen by birth is not the same. It is the meaning from Law of Nations, and only that meaning which counts. You can find it in Vattel’s Law of Nations, Chapter XIX, used by our founders as their principle reference in writing both the Declaration and our Constitution. How do I know? Because John Jay and Benjamin Franklin both said so. How do I know natural born citizen came from Vattel? Because Chief Justice John Marshall said so in The Venus, 12 U.S. 253 (1814). He said that Vattel’s definition was authoritative and quoted from The Law of Nations.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/12/253/case.html

Post: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2304248/posts Comment 37

[Sloth]

What makes you think Hawaii even has or needs a legal definition of “natural born citizen”, as opposed to just “citizen?”

[Spaulding]

No, the statement in 1789 was an acknowledged mistake. It was corrected quickly. No Congressional act can change it. Read Marbury v. Madison. The author of Marbury, the basis for our interpretation of the separation of powers, John Marshall, knowing there had been some confusion, re-stated. the definition and cited the source, Vattel, explicitly in his decision on The Venus, 1814. No congressional act can alter a provision of the constitution. That is probably the key notion to be come from Marbury.

Here is the citation from The Venus, 12 U.S. (1814):

The whole system of decisions applicable to this subject rests on the law of nations as its base. It is therefore of some importance to inquire how far the writers on that law consider the subjects of one power residing within the territory of another, as retaining their original character or partaking of the character of the nation in which they reside. Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says "The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights."

John Marshall was referring the the French edition, and used the term 'Indigene'. Later justices, and the Chitty English translation of Law of Nations uses 'natural born citizen'.

Should you really be interested (I believe that many comments are designed to sow confusion about our laws to enable the socialist movement and their current flagbearer) find the congressional address by 14th Amendment author John Bingham. He makes it clear that nothing in the 14th Amendment had bearing on the understanding of "Natural Born Citizen", "about which there hsa never been any doubt." I guess Obama has inspired some doubt!

[SteveH]

I received a response from Ms. Okubo:

Aloha [...],

The Health Director has nothing further to add to her statement.
Vital records information is exempt from the UIPA.

Janice Okubo
Communications Office
Hawaii State Department of Health
1250 Punchbowl Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
email: janice.okubo@doh.hawaii.gov

I sent her the following response:

Dear Ms. Okubo,

The first question

> Please send me an electronic copy of the written criteria
> by which the
> Hawaii Department of Health determines that a person is a
> natural born
> American citizen.

did not mention Dr. Fukino and did not mention her statement,
and so your response that Dr. Fukino has nothing to add to her
statement does not answer the first question. Therefore your
response is not responsive to the first question.

I respectfully reiterate my request for an answer to the above question under the UIPC.

Thank you.

[MissTickly]

This is the way I framed it within a UUIPA request:

“Also, please send me an electronic copy of the written criteria, that must be satisfied, by which the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health determines that a person, whose vital records she has statutory authority over, is a natural-born American citizen.”

[MissTickly]

Also, I have heard nothing back. But I copied hannity, beck, greta and loudobbs on MY request to Ms. Okubo.

I asked that Okubo confirm receipt of my request by replying to all. She hasn’t done that. Everything I send her I copy all those news people along with Ms. Okubo so she knows that the media is aware of my request.

Would you mind sending her my entire records request below in your name and see what happens, you too could copy the same people, I will provide their addresses at the end:

Ms. Okubo-

Here’s my full Uniform Information Practices Act of the State of Hawaii request:

Under the Uniform Information Practices Act of the State of Hawaii, “...the people are vested with the ultimate decision-making power. Government agencies exist to aid the people in the formation and conduct of public policy. Opening up the government processes to public scrutiny and participation is the only viable and reasonable method of protecting the public’s interest. Therefore the legislature declares that it is the policy of this State that the formation and conduct of public policy—the discussions, deliberations, decisions, and action of government agencies—shall be conducted as openly as possible.”

Please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has President Barack Obama’s SUPPLEMENTARY BIRTH CERTIFICATE on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARRY SOETORO’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARRY DUNHAM’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARACK SOETORO’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARACK DUNHAM’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARRY H. SOETORO’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARRY H. DUNHAM’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARACK H. SOETORO’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

Also, please send me digital and written confirmation that the Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, has personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has BARACK H. DUNHAM’S VITAL RECORD(S) on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

If you have no confirmation on any or all of the above, please send me that, too.

Also, please send me an electronic written version of Hawaii Administrative Rules, Chapter 117 (Title 11) of the Vital Statistics, Registration & Records Office. If Chapter 117 is STILL under review, please send me an electronic written version of the old Public Health Regulations Chapters 8, 8A, and 8B of the Administrative Rules for the Vital Statistics, Registration & Records Office.

Also, please send me an electronic copy of the written criteria, that must be satisfied, by which the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health determines that a person, whose vital records she has statutory authority over, is a natural-born American citizen.

Also, please send me an electronic copy of any written communications between the Hawaii Department of Health and Barack Obama or anyone claiming to represent Barack Obama concerning Mr. Obama’s birth certificate, certificate of live birth, certification of live birth, and/or supplementary birth certificate or certification of live birth from Jan. 1, 2008 through July 29, 2009.

Please consider this request as a Hawaii UIPA (Uniform Information Practices Act) request under section 92F-12.

Thank you, XX

hannity@foxnews.com, glennbeck@foxnews.com, ontherecord@foxnews.com, lou@loudobbsradio.com, loudobbs@loudobbsradio.com

[MissTickly]

I keep putting 2 ‘U’s in there and I don’t know why: UIPA

[Marguerite]

“If we can get the folks in Hawaii to say that they determine ‘a person’ is a Natural Born Citizen in part by looking at BOTH parents citizenship, we know Obama lied about who his real father is. Or was mistaken.”

The person posturing as Barack Obama graduated at PUNAHOU High School in 1979 as BARRY SOETORO.

Barry Soetoro: 1975-1979

http://www.classmates.com/directory/school/Punahou%20High%20School_7.jsp?org=1013

So if he graduated as SOETORO, and he is now Obama, WHEN he changed his name?

[SteveH]

I sent the following to Governor Lingle and copied Ms. Okubo:

To: governor.lingle@hawaii.gov
Cc: janice.okubo@doh.hawaii.gov

Dear Governor Lingle,

Yesterday, July 29, 2009, I sent Janice Okubo of the Hawaii Department of Health a UIPC request asking, among other things, that she send me an electronic copy of the criteria by which the Department of Health determines natural born citizenship:

> Please send me an electronic copy of the written criteria
> by which the
> Hawaii Department of Health determines that a person is a
> natural born
> American citizen.

Today, July 30, 2009, I received a response from Ms. Okubo in which she stated:

> The Health Director has nothing further to add to her
> statement.
> Vital records information is exempt from the UIPA.

Please note that my first question as indicated above
did not request any vital records and it did not even
mention the Health Director nor was it directed at
the Health Director. Therefore I contend that Ms. Okubo’s
response is non-responsive to my first question and violates
the letter and intent of the UIPA.

I request your assistance in persuading Ms. Okubo to adhere
to the Hawaii UIPC and answer the question fully.

Thank you.

---

Sorry, I did this before I noticed your suggestion.
I also forwarded my request to Gov. Lingle to hannity, beck, greta and loudobbs. I omitted Dr. Fukino due to Ms. Okubo’s response mentioning that the Health Director had nothing more to state on any of my questions and I did not want to give anyone any further excuse to decline to respond. In any case, we should see what if anything happens when the questions are reduced to a single question which leaves no cover from the usual excuse that vital records cannot be shared without permission from a a primary party to the records... KISS (Keep It Simple Steve :-)

[MissTickly]

This is a question that I have had on my mind all along.

Thanks for bringing it up!

[MissTickly]

Do you have the governor’s email address handy?

Thank you for helping me with all this. You have been more willing than anyone!

Thank you, thank you!

[MissTickly]

Never mind, I see it here! governor.lingle@hawaii.gov