immigration

It is all about supply and demand. 20 million illegals need food, clothing, cars, housing, medical facilities, jails, prisons, courts and polices and gang units, schools and teachers, social services, etc. The businesses that produce these things need to produce more for the illegals and jobs are created for them. Americans are not using more products and need illegals to fill jobs and do not need to produce for Americans. Beside creating jobs for themselves they are taking jobs from American citizens, especially Black Americans. Illegals benefit themselves and corporations by making them richer. Corporations benefit themselves and government by paying more taxes. Corporate America runs the government. The economy is good for corporations and not for Americans who are struggling. This result in great for corporations and government and the Americans people get screwed by lowering of their wages and their taxes goes to finance illegals needs and presence in this country. Illegals being low wage earners pay very little in taxes and most get the earn income tax break or pay no taxes. No illegals will not be sent back home because of anchor babies and if they are not babies and 16 years old they purposely have babies to secure their stay in America. This law has to be changed or no form of immigration reform will work. If not changed the borders will mean nothing. Pence, want to crate a “Ellis Island” in a joke. He say if the illegals leave the country, fill out papers and come back home in America it is not amnesty. Duh. Americans are not that stupid. Let them go home apply and wait their turn like everyone else. Send them home one by one with their babies (babies that were born to illegals at a cost to hospitals and American citizens) over a period of time. Maybe years. That is how they came and the economy they created will gradually disappear within society. American citizens do not want illegals immigration but “legal” immigration. God bless Hazelton, Pa and Sheriff Arpaio of Phoenix, AZ and all the others that hear the cry of the American people.

"Actually no I don't. Your bill presumes that we can end illegal immigration and deport those here. Are you suggesting this bill won't actually do that? Will we pick and choose which felons we go after? "

Let's try again shall we?
Do we go all out to catch all murderers in this country?
Yes.
Do we end up catching all murderers?
Nope.
We still have murders that were committed 50 years ago, that we haven't solved.
That doesn't mean we stopped trying to catch the perpetrators of every single murder out there.
Same thing with illegal immigrants.
We go all out to deport every single illegal immigrant, put all the brain power and resources we can, like we have done on lots of great projects before. Think the Manhattan Project, The Normandy Landings, the Moon Landings etc etc.
This project is going to take several years and unprecedented effort.
Does that mean we are going to end up deporting every single illegal alien in this country?
Nope.
But the it's not a 12 million or zero option.
Never was.
That's the straw man's argument being spewed out by the illegal allien loving jokers.
And it's not working.

"Considering what I've read so far, yes I'd be dramatically surprised."

Of course you'd be.
You don't appear to know much about terrorists.
Apart from tying to use terrorism as a bogeyman for your "give-a-free-pass-to-iilegals" agenda.

"Because most I have run into who actually understand the mission, history and goals of the Islamic Brotherhood somehow consider them to be the greatest threat to this Country."

Not only have I "run into" those who know Islamofacist vermin, I have actually MET some of those vermin and lived amongst them.
You should try living outside this country some time.

"Again, though you claim expertise in terrorism, you seem oblivious to the fact that few if any come into this Country across the Mexican border"

# 1. By the very nature of it, no one knows exactly who comes across our Mexican borders.

# 2. We have already had plenty of Islamofacist terrorists caught at the Mexican border already, as plenty of posts at FR have already shown.
What that means is that there are plenty more we haven't caught, given that we don't come anywhere near close to catching all illegals aliens streaming in through our borders, and Islamofacts terrorists are much tougher and better organized then your run of the mil illegal immigrant.

"And by refusing to negotiate with half of Congress, where do you suppose this determination and political will will come from? "

From the Republican majority in The House, and the majority of Republican in the US Senate(Majority of Republicans in the Senate voted against the evil senate Bill).
We happen to be in the majority. It's not 50/50.
But more than all that, it's not so much the congress, its the Bush administration.
Look, Its quite cute that President Bush has some maid or whatever, who's been in his family like forever, that came here from Mexico (there's a post somewhere here at FR about it I think), but does that mean the President should turn a blind eye to our immigration laws on the books?
No.
He swore an oath of office.
It would help if he tried vigorously enforcing our immigration laws for a change.

"Actually, all police forces have measures of success, whether you want to call them quotas on tickets, prosecutions, number of arrests for prostitution, etc. It exists, and most know it. This will be no different. "Body Count".

There you go again with your non-points.
Quotas? Of course there are measures of success, that's how I have argued that we never have 100% success rates of catching murderers.
Again, if we never stopped trying to catch murderers, when we don't achieve 100% success rates, why on earth stop trying to apprehend the illegal invaders because we can't catch all 12 million illegals today or this year or whatever?

"Again, though you claim expertise in terrorism, you seem oblivious to the fact that few if any come into this Country across the Mexican border. Almost all come in with visas. But then since you know a lot more about it than do I, you already knew that."

Yeah?
Read this:

"The cartels operating in Mexico and the United States have demonstrated that the weapons they possess can and will be used in protecting their caches," he said. "One informant familiar with the operations of these cartels mentioned to us that the weapons we use are water guns compared to what we will have to come up against if we ever have to. These cartels, known to frequently cross into the United States, possess and use automatic weapons, grenades and grenade launchers. They are also experts in explosives, wiretapping, counter-surveillance, lock-picking and GPS technology. They are able to monitor our office, home and cellular phone conversations. The original members of this cartel were trained in the United States by our government."

Gonzales was one of several law enforcement officials who testified before the Committee on House International Relations Subcommittee on International Terrorism and Nonproliferation on what they see as a serious terrorist threat at the Mexican border.

These powerful criminal gangs would not think twice about bringing terrorists or even weapons of mass destruction into the U.S. if the price was right, the officials agreed. Some of them believe they have already arrived.

"We continue to believe that terrorists have expressed an interest and a desire to exploit the existing vulnerabilities in our border security to enter or attack the United States," said Gonzales.

Some also believe that, for operational reasons, an undetected, illegal entry into the U.S. by al-Qaida agents, is preferable to a legal entry. "

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1667006/posts

But the it's not a 12 million or zero option. Never was. That's the straw man's argument being spewed out by the illegal allien loving jokers. And it's not working.

So you are starting off by saying our plan can't really catch all of them, but we will make them all felons so we can add another 20 million to the rolls, making catching the murderers even tougher.

Everything to you is a straw man. But then the 20 million or 0 option is not in the Senate plan either. Since at least 25 to 50 % would not meet the requirements, the Senate plan culls it down so that we can concentrate on those we truly want out of here. Yours adds 10 15 million productive workers and families.

You don't appear to know much about terrorists. Apart from tying to use terrorism as a bogeyman for your "give-a-free-pass-to-iilegals" agenda.

Well, that bogyman label does show the extent of your knowledge. And your give a free pass comment shows your knowledge of the Senate plan. Zero plus zero still equals zero.

Not only have I "run into" those who know Islamofacist vermin, I have actually MET some of those vermin and lived amongst them. You should try living outside this country some time.

Yes, I see people all the time trying desperately to make themselves look like experts. You know nothing about me, my history, education, experience, or anything else, but yet you pretend to. Quit bragging about all your alleged experience and expertise and stick to the issues.

We have already had plenty of Islamofacist terrorists caught at the Mexican border already, as plenty of posts at FR have already shown. What that means is that there are plenty more we haven't caught, given that we don't come anywhere near close to catching all illegals aliens streaming in through our borders, and Islamofacts terrorists are much tougher and better organized then your run of the mil illegal immigrant.

Which again shows the extent of your interest or knowledge of the real threat to our Nation.

From the Republican majority in The House, and the majority of Republican in the US Senate(Majority of Republicans in the Senate voted against the evil senate Bill). We happen to be in the majority. It's not 50/50.

Yes, and this week the House Republicans are going to try and pass a marriage amendment. Wow! Exactly what has the Republican majority accomplished?

Look, Its quite cute that President Bush has some maid or whatever, who's been in his family like forever, that came here from Mexico (there's a post somewhere here at FR about it I think), but does that mean the President should turn a blind eye to our immigration laws on the books? No. He swore an oath of office. It would help if he tried vigorously enforcing our immigration laws for a change.

Congress appropriates and authorizes. ICE does what it can with the funding it has. As for the President, he wants a reasoned (meaning non-extremist) approach that recognizes he is the President of all the people, not just a bunch of red state House members most of whom have never been near the border.

Quotas? Of course there are measures of success, that's how I have argued that we never have 100% success rates of catching murderers.

Not aware of any quotas for murderers.

Again, if we never stopped trying to catch murderers, when we don't achieve 100% success rates, why on earth stop trying to apprehend the illegal invaders because we can't catch all 12 million illegals today or this year or whatever?

I'm saying we will spend precious resources going after the numbers. We will catch those who are productive and deport them. That will take up most of the resources, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going after the drug dealers, gang members etc. And the measure of success will be the numbers, not the history of the "felons".

These powerful criminal gangs would not think twice about bringing terrorists or even weapons of mass destruction into the U.S. if the price was right, the officials agreed. Some of them believe they have already arrived.

So far there is no evidence of any connection between the criminal gangs and the Islamic Muslim Brotherhood or its various organizations. But it may happen if the gangs see something in it for themselves other than mafia style money making in the US. At this point, there is little evidence they and the Brotherhood have any congruent goals.

"We continue to believe that terrorists have expressed an interest and a desire to exploit the existing vulnerabilities in our border security to enter or attack the United States," said Gonzales.

And so far, the evidence suggests they have not. They have been arriving, organizing, funding, recruiting and planning since 1980 here in this country, will almost all the evidence showing they have been arriving legally. Why chance a long hot trek through the desert when a plane ride is much faster?

Some also believe that, for operational reasons, an undetected, illegal entry into the U.S. by al-Qaida agents, is preferable to a legal entry. "

Again, those who are most knowlegable disagree. Can that change, yes. And that is why we must seal our borders. Although I enjoy FR, it is hardly the font of all knowledge and has reflected a few opinions not shared by most from time to time. Expand your education beyond FR.

"So you are starting off by saying our plan can't really catch all of them, "
Imam saying exactly what I have said 20 times already:
Its not a zero or 12 million option.
We have to try and deport every single one of the suckers, irrespective of if we will catch every single one of them or not.
The point being, the government is not really trying at all.

"but we will make them all felons so we can add another 20 million to the rolls, making catching the murderers even tougher"

Straw man's argument again.
Any police force will tell you that they put far more resources on murderers than on shop lifters or burglaries.
Put enough resources on illegals, who who have already broken the law by being here, and we'll get most of the suckers back where they came from.
You really don't have anything to say apart from the same discredited nonsense do you?
You keep spewing out the same old meaningless crap over and over again.
Sigh.

"But then the 20 million or 0 option is not in the Senate plan either"

It is.
The Senate starts off by assuming(wrongly) that it will be impossible to deport 12 million, so therefore we'd better just grant amnesty.
Now that's nonsense.
That's where the straw man's argument is.

"Since at least 25 to 50 % would not meet the requirements, the Senate plan culls it down so that we can concentrate on those we truly want out of here. ."

Exactly how are you going to determine those 25-50% again, since the Senate also prohibits federal officials from thoroughly investigating any fake documents presented by these illegal suckers.
'Back in 1986, the amnesty bill led to the greatest productions of fake documents in US history until that time
Ed Meese who was AG at the time has given several interviews on that.
Today the fake documents business is far more advanced than in 1986.

"Yours adds 10 15 million productive workers and families"

It's not "mine".
Get this into your thick head: It's THE LAW.
They broke our immigration laws, they pay the penalties as prescribed by the law TODAY, which is DEPORTATION.
Unfortunately for you the Senate Shamnesty Bill is still NOT the law today.
This is a country of laws. Get it?

"Yes, and this week the House Republicans are going to try and pass a marriage amendment. Wow! Exactly what has the Republican majority accomplished? "

Now you are come out of the woods.
How is Kos doing these days?

"Congress appropriates and authorizes. ICE does what it can with the funding it has"

ICE can go spend the money from congress on hookers in Mexico?
Who knew?

"As for the President, he wants a reasoned (meaning non-extremist) approach that recognizes he is the President of all the people, ."

He is the president of the United States, not president of Mexico or Mexicans. They have their own president already. The President is out of town on immigration.
His ideas don't make any sense, as eminent economists like Thomas Sowell have proved over and over again.

"not just a bunch of red state House members most of whom have never been near the border"

#1. The illegal immigration problems are affecting every state in the country, even here in New York, where we have hundreds of thousands of the suckers.
# 2. Plenty of Red Sate House members ARE from the border states. In fact I'd say we have more congressmen from the border states than the RATS.

What more ya got?

"So far there is no evidence of any connection between the criminal gangs and the Islamic Muslim Brotherhood or its various organizations"

# 1. Now how would you know that exactly again?
We KNOW that Islamic terrorist have entered this country through the Mexican border.
Given that we don't even come close to arresting most of those invading our country, its certain that even more Islamic terrorists have sneaked in from Mexico, that we don't know about.

Are the American hating Mexican drug dealing vermin and the cayotes the kinds of people who will do anything for money? Yes.
Would they take money from Al Quaeda to smuggle Al Quaeda terroristsinto this country? YOU BET!

And # 2. Why on earth do we have to wait till Al Quaeda exploits our open Mexican borders before we do something to close it?
It's like leaving your day open at night in a high crime area.

"Again, those who are most knowlegable disagree"

The mysterious "most" huh?
You work for The Slimes?
Anyone with an iota of common sense knows that a thief or a murderer or a terrorist for that matter, would rather sneak in without being observed at all, than come in through a place chock full of video cameras, where they may record his finger prints his picture weight, characteristics etc. Anyone that is apart from a Mexican shill.

"Although I enjoy FR, it is hardly the font of all knowledge and has reflected a few opinions not shared by most from time to time. Expand your education beyond FR."

Hah Hah.
You must be getting desperate.

"I'm saying we will spend precious resources going after the numbers. We will catch those who are productive and deport them. That will take up most of the resources, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going after the drug dealers, gang members etc. And the measure of success will be the numbers, not the history of the "felons"."

As at today, we deport a greater percentage of illegal aliens that have committed crimes than illegal aliens in general.
In fact in New York City, you gotta commit a crime as an illegal before the police or anyone else will even take any interest in you at all.
So your don't have a point.
Going after all illegals doesn't mean we are going to go after the the criminal illegals any less.
The DEA and the FBI will continue to go after the illegal alien drug dealers, same as before.

"Congress appropriates and authorizes. ICE does what it can with the funding it has"

The Bush administration and ICE is not doing what congress is telling it to do:

The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 called for at least 2,000 more Border Patrol agents per year along our border with Mexico to stop the unrelenting flow of people and illegal drugs into this country. But the Bush administration provided funding for only around 200 additional agents.

Straw man's argument again.

So as I understand it, anything that you disagree with is a straw man argument. That's typical.

Put enough resources on illegals, who who have already broken the law by being here, and we'll get most of the suckers back where they came from.

So what is your estimate of what it will take to find and deport 20 million assimilated illegals? You don't accept my straw man argument that it will take away from other more important law enforcement duties, so how many and where do they come from. More important, how will you fund it?

Today the fake documents business is far more advanced than in 1986.

Exactly. Outside of some kind of bi-partisan bill, how do you intend to combat that?

Get this into your thick head: It's THE LAW.

If you can't debate rationally sans the insults when your point wilts like a late summer rose, stick it where the sun don't shine!

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