Lady Eleanor Talbot

Fact-Index.com ^ | prior to today | Wikipedia

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No records survive of the meeting of the Parliamentary lords on June 9, 1483, where Stillington is said to have presented the evidence of the pre-contract, including documents and other witnesses. The Duke of Buckingham is supposed to have told Morton afterwards that he had believed that evidence when he saw it but had later changed his mind. When Henry VII of England came to the throne, he ordered all documents relating to the case to be destroyed, as well as the act of parliament by which Richard was enabled to claim the throne; so efficiently were his orders carried out that only one copy of Titulus Regius has ever been found.

[SunkenCiv]

Richard's brother and predecessor Edward had previously been married, and so his known children were bastards in the eyes of the Church (remember that this was before Henry VIII, before the schism, before divorce) and ineligible for the throne. The Parliament issued the Titulus Regius spelling out the succession, which pushed aside the children in favor of Richard, who was not therefore a usurper, but the legitimate monarch.

When Richard had been murdered on the field, Henry demanded that the Titulus Regius be rescinded and destroyed. This relegitimized the children, making them heirs to the throne. Henry promptly (indeed, probably before) had the brothers murdered, married their sister, and reunified the Houses of Lancaster and York (although his claim to be Lancastrian was weak).

Richard III was surrounded by treasonous jerkoffs in the employ of his foe. The traitors pulled him off his horse, and stabbed him as he lay in the full weight of his armor, shouting "treason!"

Henry had to have the children relegitimized, otherwise the sister wouldn't be an heiress. But that necessitated murdering the "little Princes" because they had a much better claim to the throne than Henry (or their own sister). This act also turned Richard III into a usurper.

Later, Henry VII offered to pardon one of his henchmen if he'd own up to the murder and say that he'd been ordered to do it by Richard III. The henchman did this. Henry VII then had him executed.

Henry Tudor, who though nothing but a pretender, was enormously well connected and had a number of ruthless and murderous allies in England. The vicious acts of his descendants are well within the context of his nature and that of his family.

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[SunkenCiv]

Queen taken to hospital
This is London ^ | January 13, 2003 | This is London
Posted on 01/13/2003 4:35:17 AM PST by MadIvan
11 posted on 01/13/2003 5:27:39 AM PST by YaYa123
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/821715/posts?page=12#12

Skeleton found in Civil War ironclad
AP ^ | August 3, 2002 | AP
Posted on 08/03/2002 7:31:07 PM PDT by USA21
16 posted on 08/03/2002 8:40:13 PM PDT by lizma
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/727320/posts?page=16#16

Yorkshire anger at white rose flag ban
The Guardian ^ | 18/12/03 | Martin Wainwright
Posted on 12/18/2003 7:51:11 AM PST by Jakarta ex-pat
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1042792/posts

[SunkenCiv]

[with some editing errors removed]

Richard's brother and predecessor Edward had previously been married, and so his known children were bastards in the eyes of the Church (remember that this was before Henry VIII, before the schism, before divorce) and ineligible for the throne. The Parliament issued the Titulus Regius spelling out the succession, which pushed aside the children in favor of Richard, who was not therefore a usurper, but the legitimate monarch.

Richard III was surrounded by treasonous jerkoffs in the employ of his foe. The traitors pulled him off his horse, and stabbed him as he lay in the full weight of his armor, shouting "treason!"

After Richard had been murdered on the field, Henry demanded that the Titulus Regius be rescinded and destroyed. This relegitimized the children, making them heirs to the throne. Henry promptly (indeed, probably before) had the brothers murdered, married their sister, and reunified the Houses of Lancaster and York (although his claim to be Lancastrian was weak).

Henry had to have the children relegitimized, otherwise the sister wouldn't be an heiress. But that necessitated murdering the "little Princes" because they had a much better claim to the throne than Henry (or their own sister). This act also turned Richard III into a usurper.

Later, Henry VII offered to pardon one of his henchmen if he'd own up to the murder and say that he'd been ordered to do it by Richard III. The henchman did this. Henry VII then had him executed.

Henry Tudor, who though nothing but a pretender, was enormously well connected and had a number of ruthless and murderous allies in England. The vicious acts of his descendants are well within the context of his nature and that of his family.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[lizma]

I think it was Richard, not Henry that bumped off the Little Princes. Richard was a the kind of thug that Hilliary would be proud of.

Here's an interesting piece of Brit history. I read in a book entitled "The History of England" published in the 1860's. It states that Longshank's son, Edward II got in a lot of trouble with a Spencer and Parliament made a law that no Spencer should ever be King. This is Lady Di's line. It sounds like legally William or Henry can't inherit the throne. May get interesting.

[lizma]

Whoops! Change Henry for Richard and Richard for Henry in my last post. Henry was the bad guy. I think the Tudors were a nasty lot.

It's wayyyy past my bedtime. Nighty-night. Thanks for taking over the ping list

[SunkenCiv]

It was Henry, not Richard. But as they say, the winners write the histories. Henry was a usurper. So, for that matter, was William the Conqueror, a.k.a. the Bastard.

George W. Bush will be reelected by a margin of at least ten per cent

[lizma]

the winners write the histories.

You are so right. I've read pretty convincing arguments that conclude that Shakespeare's Richard III was based on the writings of John Morton, the Tudor's Joesph Goebbels.

[SunkenCiv]

It helped to have Shakespeare, the popular artist, propping up the myth back then. I just had the BBC "Elizabeth" documentary from the library, and the play Richard II is mentioned. When it was first printed (probably what we would consider nowadays to be a bootleg text) one of Richard's soliloquies was cut because it made reference by analogy (intentional or not) with a then-current power struggle between Elizabeth and one of the members of her inner circle. Later, Shakespeare quoted (in one of his plays, perhaps "The Tempest"?) the Latin poet Ovid -- "treason doth never prosper -- what's the reason? If it prosper, none dare call it treason." There couldn't be a more clear reference to Elizabeth's grandfather, Henry VII, but there's no way to know whether the playwrite intended that.

George W. Bush will be reelected by a margin of at least ten per cent

[SunkenCiv]

Thomas Cromwell
by "Marilee"

It is important to remember that during Henry's reign, at least half of his subjects were under the age of eighteen.  Henry's court swarmed with young people - pages, scullery maids, and the like.  English culture celebrated youth; tournaments, hunts, glorious warfare were all the province of the young and strong.  And while Henry was young, he joined these events with a gusto sadly lacking in his father or son.  But time does not stop, not even for a despotic monarch determined to have his way in all things.  During his 'great matter', Henry was in his thirties and changing from 'Bluff King Hal' into an overweight and balding hypochondriac.  He had rid himself of Rome to gain wealth and a son.  He gained both and, once he had, continually toyed with the idea of making peace with the pope.  He didn't relish excommunication and it is likely that he persuaded himself that he wasn't disobeying Christ's vicar but rather the Emperor's puppet.

What can I tell ya, I watched "A Man For All Season" last night. ;')

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[SunkenCiv]

February 2005 bump