Another burst of nuttiness (hopefully the last for a while)

Self | 1/21/'21 | Zionist Conspirator

[Zionist Conspirator]

In my meandering post from last night I theorized that the Left was using jim crow and the civil rights movement to initiate a process whereby the "unjust" laws of G-d would be superseded by the "just" secular laws of man.

This is the root of the whole problem. Because there never was, is not now, and never will be an objective secular standard of morality/ethics/justice. Any system created by people is going to be arbitrary.

Furthermore, the very purpose of morality/ethics/justice is submission to the Divine Will. Any system which by-passes this for mere utilitarian results is missing the point of the whole thing. Furthermore, it is G-d's Laws which determine objectively just what is good and what is evil. In this sense G-d literally makes evil possible. If reality truly is a closed system of material causes and effects, then nothing is right and nothing is wrong. And people who claim to be absolute materialists quite frankly have no business having any sort of moral/ethical/justice standard. There is only one rational and logical position for a true materialist--"eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." And yet it is precisely the people who should follow this philosophy who are moral fanatics of the highest order. Is someone with such a position really a materialist at all, or something else?

By their way of thinking, people would be no more than rocks or any other piece of matter (and all our beliefs and thoughts are merely bio-chemical reactions in the brain). And has anyone ever seen a rock marching for "social justice" or trying to "liberate" anything? Why is it that people who claim to be rocks refuse to act like rocks?

Yet American conservatives conventionally oppose these non-Theistic standards with other, if opposite, non-Theistic standards. Surely we can all see by now that Thomas Jefferson and Frederic Bastiat are completely inadequate for fighting our enemies. Ditto the constant appeals to the glories of Greco-Roman classical civilization, centuries of gorgeous art, and all the other trappings of western civilization. The fact is, our enemies are as much a product of western civilization as we are. Karl Marx wasn't born in the Australian outback or Arctic Siberia, and every collection of "the western canon" always includes works by Marx. It is secular western civilization that gave birth to naturalism and materialism, not Mayans.

There is only one argument to make and that is to state boldly that non-Theists shouldn't have any "values" at all and that right and wrong are precisely and only how G-d defines them. But we're so unused to this argument--indeed, allergic to it--that it never seems to occur to anyone to make it. We keep on extolling a western civilization whose current psychoses were perhaps inevitable and constantly accept every new atrocity from the other side--"gay rights," "trans," etc. Let the Left find a new cause and in no time at all the Right will be claiming it could do a better job of championing it.

This is disgusting.

Religious arguments are made occasionally, but they are not about objective truth but about relativistic national tradition. The Founding Fathers are often quoted, but their arguments are strictly utilitarian (especially the oft used quote of John Adams). "This is a chrstian country!" tells us absolutely nothing about whether or not chrstianity is true (and is ultimately no different than the third world Leftist slogan "deze are de ways of our pipplez"). Yes, America is a chrstian country, but Thailand is a bxddhist country and Japan is a shinto country and Ireland is a Catholic country and Greece is an orthodox country. But so what? Every nation has some sort of traditional religious belief, but this tells us absolutely nothing about the objective truth or falsity of any of them. When an American dies, he is not going to be asked if he were the same religion as George Washington. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what America's, or any other country's, religious tradition is. The only thing that matters is which religion is true.

As a matter of fact, the very concept of "religion" as a tiny little compartment separated from the rest of life is troubling. The only true Theocracy that has ever existed is that of the Jews, and there is no Hebrew word for "religion" (they had to adopt the Persian word dat). How can there be separation of religion and state if there is no such thing as "religion" as a special category?

The very idea of "separation of 'religion' and state" is problematic, but there is an even more subversive separation--western people have literally split their minds into two halves, one of which deals with "reality" (with which G-d is never associated) and the other dealing with "religion" in which G-d is treated as a fictional character from Never Never Never Land. This may be easily illustrated by pointing to devout politicians who in church on sunday mornings insist that the end is imminent and nothing can be done but who when campaigning claim that America's best days are ahead of her and we will once again be the nation that we once were, this time for a zillion billion years into the future.

The real separation that needs to be ended is not that of religion and state in law but this split in the mind. Let G-d in from "Never Never Land" and permit Him to enter reality and I believe the first step will have been taken on the road to recovery.

This leads to one final issue, where my own position is well-known to old timers and most unpopular. If there is a true religion, there must be some way of establishing just which it is, and religions based on "faith" are merely treadmills to nowhere. There is one and only one claim of Divine revelation in all human history that is self-vindicating. And let's just say it was a very long time ago.

Not wanting to get into another argument (and being tired again), I will leave it at that. I only ask that someone out there realize that what we've been doing isn't working and open his mind to a possibility to which it seems stubbornly closed.

All opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. No one else is responsible.

Good night.

[Cronos]

Noahide laws -->

The “Noahide Laws” supposedly have their origin in Genesis 9. Let’s read what it actually says. I’m reading the first seven verses:

1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands.
3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

I don’t know about you, but these verses say NOTHING about:

Idolatry (if you find it, please show it to me)
Not to curse God (where does it say that?)
Establish courts of justice (are you kidding me???)
Not commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality — OK, this one is not found in the first seven verses but it might be referring to the sin of Ham (Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside) in verse 22. There are some who say that, “seeing his father naked” is code for having sex with Noah’s wife. In other words, Ham committed incest. But the evidence for this is wanting.
Not to steal (again, where is that found???)
Not to eat flesh from a torn living animal (say whaaaat???) It says not to eat meat with blood in it.

In short, the “Noahide Laws” are an invention of human origin.

People who don’t read their Bibles are susceptible to this kind of farce because it sounds Biblical but it’s NOT.

[Cronos]

I thought you were Rabbinical Jewish. Or are you a Noahide?

The Noahide "laws" are found in the Babylonian Talmud -- note the Bablyonian Talmud, a source of your Oral Torah

[Cronos]

As a matter of fact, the very concept of "religion" as a tiny little compartment separated from the rest of life is troubling. The only true Theocracy that has ever existed is that of the Jews, and there is no Hebrew word for "religion" (they had to adopt the Persian word dat). How can there be separation of religion and state if there is no such thing as "religion" as a special category?

this is well covered in Tom Holland's "Dominion" novel -- worth a read

However note that

1. separation of Church and state is exclusive to Christianity and was emphasized in post Calvinist Christianity

2. There is no separation of religion and state in either Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Shintoism

3. There have been many theocracies besides that of the Jews -

• Old Kingdom Egypt - way before the Exodus WAS a theocracy. The Pharoah was the literal son of Ra
• The Japanese emperor until the 7th century was the theocratic ruler
• Tibet was a theocracy under the Dalai Lama until 1959
• the Caliphates were theocracies
• The "Ram Rajya" of the Hindus was a pure theocracy

And those are just a few.

[Phinneous]

Sorry for the delay-- busy week and getting over covid, Baruch Hashem. I found an updated flow chart for you. I'm sure you've heard of the classical scriptural proofs Torah Jews use. There are a lot of summaries. Here is one such compilation. Shavua tov.

https://www.aishdas.org/student/oral.htm

[Cronos]

That's a flow chart, not proofs.

Furthermore, these aren't even giving details of WHY the new fangled "Noahide laws" were invented in the 600s in the Babylonian Talmud.

They aren't in scripture and weren't mentioned by anyone prior to 132 AD

Net, net, the Noahide movement is a middle Ages Baghdadi invention.

Furthermore, the entire Rabbinical Judaic movement is 4 decades younger than the Jesus-movement Jewish sect (called Christianity)

[Cronos]

So are you
1. Jewish - religious wise I mean
2. Messianic Jewish (I doubt this, but just asking)
3. Noahcide

[Phinneous]

Torah-observant Jew.
A further label would be Lubavitcher chassid.

I figured you are Evangelical....which branch?

Hat-tip Emo Philips for the best joke about denominations ever:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2005/sep/29/comedy.religion

[Cronos]

Hassids are very interesting folks, have you had the pleasure of visiting sites in Belarus/Ukraine/Poland.

What I find the most fascinating is between the various schools - on the importance of emotions. Fascinating

[Cronos]

In the 80s I had the pleasure of visiting sites in Iraq and in the 90s in India. To me it was fascinating to see and actually meet ancient communities there - of not only Jews but Mandaens, Zoraostrians, Assyrian Christians, etc. etc.

Besides the visit to Kresy/Polin when the quarantines finally get lifted, I would also suggest visits to Kochi in southern India - the synagogue there with a community history dating back to 500 BC (as I’ve noted in my other posts) is something the West forgets - thinking that Judaism and Christianity are purely “European/Western religions”

[Phinneous]

My doc is an Afghani “Son of Solomon.”
I’m sure you’re also a fan of the Sunken Civ threads posted on FR.

[Cronos]

Yes I am. It always pains me when other people here on FR dismiss Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan and don’t seem to recall their ancient importance to the Judaic faith and its offshoots.

you may have heard of the Indian and Pakistani rumour “oh, Jesus visited India” - which has a Muslim pir dargah in Kashmir. The surprising part about this is that it references another itenerrant “Messiah”-like figure from the 1st cnetury, but from the latter half of the 1st century and not from the Jewish tradition at all - rather to Apolonius of Tyana. Visited that place - not impressive.

[21twelve]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/how-christianity-came-to-india-kerala-180958117/

An acquaintance of mine married an Indian gal (Christian). There is an early church in India named after Saint Thomas. They say he traveled to India in 52 AD.

[Cronos]

I visited the shrine where his relic is kept!

oh -that reminds me of my adventure motorcycling days - this was the 4th one in India -- from Bombay down south to Kanyakumari (the extreme southern tip of India) and back -- this was before my Bombay - Ladakh (extreme northern tip) and Calcutta to Arunachal. If any of you are motorbikers, I recommend it.

From Bombay to Kerala me and my Indian biking buddies went through 4 states -- and each one of those spoke a completely different language, with different scripts!

Above Maharashtra, so Marathi

Below Kannada in Karnataka

Below Malayalam in Kerala

Below Tamil

My Indian friends told me that after the second state they didn't have any common language to communicate with the locals - and these guys were multi-lingual!

anyway, to Kerala

We took a break on the backwaters

And the ancient synagogues in Kochi

definitely worth visiting - southern india is magical.

[Phinneous]

Emotion? Polish chassidim.

Chabad? (Russian) It’s an acronym for
Chochma (the genesis of an idea)
Binah (Wisdom, contemplation)
Daas (internalization of the acquired knowledge)

It’s also the quintessential difference between Jewish approach to sin and repentance to all others. The mind rules the heart- and our very job is a life-long struggle to think, speak, and act in the G-dly (Torah) way. (Hence all the laws...)

We could discuss later. The irony of ironies is that to Jews, each man needs to perfect himself. To Christians, one man did this and none other is capable. I find it fascinating.

[Cronos]

It’s also the quintessential difference between Jewish approach to sin and repentance to all others. The mind rules the heart- and our very job is a life-long struggle to think, speak, and act in the G-dly (Torah) way. (Hence all the laws...)

But this is not an exclusive Jewish trait - in fact I would strongly suggest that many Hebraic groups take the opposite approach - come on, David letting his heart rule his mind and still being beloved of God?

Also, you should meet with a religious Druze - their observance to their secretive Holy books is far more than Jewish observance - as in my opinion the Druze are really Gnostics - "knowledge will save you"

But further afield - the Jainas of India are even more so in the "mind to rule the heart"

[Cronos]

The irony of ironies is that to Jews, each man needs to perfect himself. To Christians, one man did this and none other is capable. I find it fascinating.

True and this parallels with Sanatana Dharma (the main "Hindu" religion) belief that you are to perfect yourself -- you can see this in the Jain Tirthankara and the Buddhist traditions as well (They derive from the "Hindu" Adharma schools)

Though to Christians - your statement "none other is capable" is not quite the whole truth - the Christian point of view is that "no one can FULLY really perfection WITHOUT God's help." - this is in parallel to rabbinical Judaic belief that "very few have FULLY reached perfection"

[21twelve]

Wow! What an adventure!

[Cronos]

yes. I keep boring my wife when I repeat it!