Posted on 01/21/2021 7:07:08 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator
An interesting series of posts. You must be a Sola Scriptura guy since you praise the Samaritans so much for it. How is your Hebrew? Can you study original texts?
Someone must have told you Jews eat corned beef on rye plain. No, the tradition is with mustard. (A little joke for you)
Jews trace our Oral Law to Mount Sinai, in Hebrew and English. It is what allows, for example, for a Moabite woman to convert....ergo Ruth, Ovadua, Jesse...David. (and coincidentally down all the way to my senior partner...who may yet become revealed as the Messiah)
And on and on. There is literally no Judaism on literalism of the text alone.
Samaritans sitting in the dark... It’s like a “how many to change a lightbulb” joke. And thats how those who sat in Moses’ seat treated them for their heresy.
Jews (those who believe and study...) know the answers in our own sources, including the Hebrew Bible. We know the meaning- plain, simple or plain,the homiletical, the allegorical, the mystical, in which all of the answers are contained- and there’s nothing new under the sun.
Its a heavy lift. So be the pioneer. Go to your local Orthodox synagogue and tell a Jew you’d like to learn the Torah. Or PM me. We’ll start a movement and the ultimate Revival or bust, G-d willing.
Phinneous
What I am doing is pointing out that your point of a deeper, older connection to their Creator is incorrect considering that Rabbinical Judaism dates at the earliest to 70 AD, which makes it 37 odd years younger than Christianity (i.e. Jesus-movement-Judaism) and if one looks at the details in the Talmud, to more precisely 600 AD to 800 AD
Rabbinical Judaism, whether "Reformed" or "Orthodox" is not older than Christianity.
the Samaritans or the Karaites have a better claim and are older in their beliefs than either Rabbinical Judaism or Jesus-Movement Judaism,
.
but your beliefs are not that old that you can claim an "older connection to the creator"
you are shoe-horning Jews into your own concept
The people of Jewish origin, some believing Jews, others far from it are from varied Jewish backgrounds, but the ones I call my friends are 1 from a Yemeni Jewish background and 2 from a Bene-Israeli (Indian) Jewish background. Their culture, their looks, their food are quite, quite different from the American and northern European stereotypes. The corned beef for instance would be disgusting to the 2 Bombaywallah Jews I know.
For that matter, the Jewish experience in south-western India was utterly different from that of the Jewish stereotype. I've been to the synagogues in Cochin etc. and seen the Jewish community there that dates itself to 500 BC. Their experiences, cultures etc. are not your stereotype - they were not persecuted until the 1500 to 1700 period, on the contrary they deeply integrated with the local peoples.
As I pointed out in my posts - this statement you make "We Jews trace our Oral Law" is false
It's not "Jews" - it's specifically Rabbinical Judaism that has this Oral Torah.
The Karaite Jews and the Jesus-movement-Jews do not have this Oral Torah --> and the Sadducees and Essenes in the past did not have it either
It is what allows, for example, for a Moabite woman to convert....ergo Ruth, Ovadua, Jesse...David. --> Ruth pre-dates the Oral Torah as seen in historical terms. The Oral Torah is NOT mentioned at all prior to the Babylonian exile. And when it IS mentioned, it is not by the Levites or High priests but by rabbis. This Oral Torah cannot trace itself back to pre-Babylonian exile times.
And it isn't formalized until well AFTER the Jesus-movement Jews form their structure - so the Oral Torah derived Rabbinical Judaism is NOT the "older way to worship God"
What can I tell ya.... if you have to make literal explanations on a delicatessen joke... there’s no hope I guess.
No, you or your (Kaarite friends?) website tell you “rabbinic Judaism” is something different. Jews do not say so. So who to believe?
As I pointed out in my posts - this statement you make is false -- Karaite Jews are literalists and stick to the Written Torah.
The Sadducees WERE literalists and stuck to the Written Torah alone
They have a different story - they point out that the Jews strayed from Mosaic law and see themselves as the inheritors - precisely because they did not and do not accept the Ketuvim and Nevi'im
You call them heretics. I ask you, why do you call them heretics?
Actually, "you" as in Rabbinical Jews don't keep just the Hebrew Bible (Torah, Ketuvim and navi'im) but you use the Talmudic discussion to have THAT meaning of what the Torah says plus also interpretations that take that further.
I'm not knocking you for that, nor saying that is true or truer or false or false-er, just that the Talmud post-dates Christian (Jesus-movement-Judaism) teachings, so your Rabbinical Judaism is not the "older way to worship God" - rather it is 40 years YOUNGER than Jesus-movement Judaism aka Christianity
I've read the Jewish Written Torah, breeze through the translation of the Samaritan Torah (more to check the differences than anything) and some of the Christian translations of the Written Torah
If I go to a local Rabbinical synagogue, whether Orthodox or Reformed, they will give me the Talmud or Talmudic concept of what the Torah says.
The Samaritans will tell me what THEY believe the Torah says
The various Christian denominations have different interpretations of the Torah (or Pentateuch as we call them)
Your, i.e. the Rabbinical Jewish interpretation of the Torah is far younger than the Samaritan interpretation and, younger than the Jesus-movement "general interpretation" of the Torah.
I tell you to take the Torah by itself, ignoring everything in the Talmud - why don't you do that?
None of them are Karaite.
The "Jews" you refer to are all "Rabbinical Jews" -- and they will smear those they disagree with --> various Jesus-movement-Jewish groups do the same.
Btw the Jesus-movement-Jewish groups include those we call Evangelicals, Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox, Baptist, Methodists, Anglicans, Copts, Assyrians etc. etc.
But the facts remain -- take up a copy of the Talmud and look at the dates of those musings - all post Rabbi Ben Zakkai
To gauge how much more time to spend here— for it is absurd on it’s face to be told “no” when in fact the answer is clearly “ken”—yes, in Hebrew. The only Jews are those that observe the Written and Oral Torahs which come from Mt Sinai.
There was never any Judaism without both. The analogy I’m sure you’re familiar with is— “Here is the instruction manual. Now learn how to fly and pilot that 777. Study hard.”
Without the Oral Law, when the Torah says to “afflict yourselves” (on Yom Kippur....under pain of death) how do we do so? Do we, l’havdil, beat our heads with swords like Muslims on whatever holiday they bloody themselves up? Do we whip ourselves or beat our heads like the priests in Monty Python and the Hoy Grail?
But what I see is a disconnect from Pharisees to “Rabbis-Rabbinical Judaism” in your eyes..and apparently Wikipedia’s learned eyes.
But how far back is your disagreement? Do you disagree that Matthew 23 points to the Oral Law? Or to soften it— the halachic (legal interpretive) authority? As you assume, I reject the divinity of the NT, but this is an interesting piece— It’s as if a good oral tradition would’ve helped interpret the verse:
https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/46/46-3/46-3-pp423-447_JETS.pdf
What you may have googled, the Mishna, the Talmud, etc.. these are as your wiki cut/paste said, the Oral Law written down. The Talmud, completed mid first millennia, debates the Mishna (the “zip-file” if you will, of interpretation) which was written in 1st century but collected from the notes of our rabbis, masters, and teachers for well over a thousand years.
To burden you with Jewish sources, https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/901656/jewish/Introduction-to-Mishneh-Torah.htm
(from the link, a link to Maimonedes’ Mishnah Torah)
Thus, there were forty generations from Rav Ashi back to Moses, our teacher, of blessed memory. They were:
1) Rav Ashi [received the tradition] from Ravva.
2) Ravva [received the tradition] from Rabbah.
3) Rabbah [received the tradition] from Rav Huna.
4) Rav Huna [received the tradition] from Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and Shemuel.
5) Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and Shemuel [received the tradition] from Rabbenu Hakadosh.
6) Rabbenu Hakadosh [received the tradition] from Rabbi Shimon, his father.
7) Rabbi Shimon [received the tradition] from Rabban Gamliel, his father.
8) Rabban Gamliel [received the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father.
9) Rabban Shimon [received the tradition] from Rabban Gamliel, the elder, his father.
10) Rabban Gamliel, the elder, [received the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father.
11) Rabban Shimon [received the Tradition] from Hillel, his father, and Shammai.
12) Hillel and Shammai [received the tradition] from Shemayah and Avtalion.
13) Shemayah and Avtalion [received the tradition] from Yehudah and Shimon [ben Shatach].
14) Yehudah and Shimon [received the tradition] from Yehoshua ben Perachiah and Nittai of Arbel.
15) Yehoshua and Nittai [received the tradition] from Yosse ben Yo’ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan.
16) Yosse ben Yo’ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan [received the tradition] from Antignos.
17) Antignos [received the tradition] from Shimon the Just.
18) Shimon the Just [received the tradition] from Ezra.
19) Ezra [received the tradition] from Baruch.
20) Baruch [received the tradition] from Jeremiah.
21) Jeremiah [received the tradition] from Tzefaniah.
22) Tzefaniah [received the tradition] from Chabbakuk.
23) Chabbakuk [received the tradition] from Nachum.
24) Nachum [received the tradition] from Yoel.
25) Yoel [received the tradition] from Michah.
26) Michah [received the tradition] from Isaiah.
27) Isaiah [received the tradition] from Amos.
28) Amos [received the tradition] from Hoshea.
29) Hoshea [received the tradition] from Zechariah.
30) Zechariah [received the tradition] from Yehoyada.
31) Yehoyada [received the tradition] from Elisha.
32) Elisha [received the tradition] from Elijah.
33) Elijah [received the tradition] from Achiah.
34) Achiah [received the tradition] from David.
35) David [received the tradition] from Shemuel.
36) Shemuel [received the tradition] from Eli.
37) Eli [received the tradition] from Pinchas.
38) Pinchas [received the tradition] from Joshua.
39) Joshua [received the tradition] from Moses, our teacher.
40) Moses, our teacher, [received the tradition] from the Almighty.
Thus, [the source of] all these people’s knowledge is God, the Lord of Israel.
____________________________________________________
And if you skim the list or skip the link, it’s not that we had one or a pair of scholars in every generation— it’s every Jewish male’s life’s work to learn the Written and Oral Laws, twice a day in fixed times.
Your quote: I tell you to take the Torah by itself, ignoring everything in the Talmud - why don’t you do that?
A: There is no separating Torah from Talmud.
Samaritans, BTW, have a self-contradicting story. They say they are from the tribe of Benjamin.... Tell that to the tribe of Benjamin at the time of the dispersal. The Jews returning from Persia found squatters on their lands— the Samaritans. They converted to Judaism for a time, and fell into idol worship (images of doves and Mt Gerizim itself were their idols.) There is more information than what you bring which is designed for one thing— to throw the Torah-observant Jews of today off the seat of Moses. We have been eating hot food on the Sabbath day in our tents (where no fire shall be kindled...) since Sinai —a contradiction!? unless you know the Oral Law.
Luckily for you my friend, the Noahide Laws are clearly in the written Torah— they were all given up to and before the time of Noah— your ticket to righteous gentilehood.
Noahide.org
That is false.
you have Karaite Jews who recognize ONLY the written Torah and reject the Oral Torah.
They are considered Jews by Rabbinical Jews as well
The largest Karaite community today resides in the Israeli city of Ashdod.
Here is a link to their community site www.karaite.org.il
ראשיתה של קהילת היהודים הקראים באשדוד קשור בהתפתחות העיר עצמה. בני הקהילה הגיעו אליה ממצרים, עם זרם העלייה השנייה של שנת 1956 (מבצע "קדש"). וכיום הפכה קהילת אשדוד לקהילה הגדולה ביותר של היהודים הקראים בארץ.בית הכנסת "ענן הנשיא"
כתבה בעיתון דבר על הנחת אבן הפינה לבית הכנסתביום רביעי, י"ב בתשרי תש"ך, 14 באוקטובר 1959,התקיים טקס הנחת אבן הפינה לבית הכנסת של הקהילה באשדוד בהשתתפות שר הדתות דאז הרב טולדאנו. את הוצאות הבנייה מימנו משרד הדתות יחד עם בני הקהילה מכל חלקי הארץ.
לאחר מספר שנים, נוכחו בני הקהילה לדעת כי בית הכנסת קטן מלהכיל את ציבור המתפללים, ועל דעת חלק מבני הקהילה, נהרס המקום מתוך כוונה לבנות בית כנסת גדול ומפואר יותר. שנים אחדות, עמד המקום בשיממונו ובני הקהילה התפללו בבית התרבות ע"ש ד"ר מרזוק הי"ד. רק לאחר מלחמת יום כיפור הוקם מחדש בית הכנסת במימונם של משרד הדתות, משרד הפנים ועיריית אשדוד בשיתוף עם בני הקהילה מכל הארץ ומהתפוצות.
מתנ"ס אחווה
במתנ"ס אחווה, הממוקם בסמוך לבית כנסת "ענן הנשיא" ברחוב האצ"ל 7,מתקיימים חוגי לימוד שונים והרצאות בנושאי דת, ופעילויות לנוער. כמו כן ניתן לערוך במקום אירועים כגון ברית מילה ומסיבות.
בית הכנסת "כתר תורה"
בית הכנסת "כתר תורה" של הקהילה היהודית הקראית באשדוד נחנך בחודש ניסן שנת תש"ע. זהו בית הכנסת השני של הקהילה באשדוד. כספים רבים הושקעו במימון פרויקט בית הכנסת שהוקם ברובע י"ב באשדוד, שמשתרע על פני 600 מ"ר. מדובר במבנה ייחודי בעל תכנון אדריכלי מאד מרשים הן מבחינה חיצונית והן מבחינה פנימית. משנות ה־60 ועד לחנוכת בית הכנסת כתר תורה שימש רק בית כנסת אחד את הקהילה ברחוב האצ"ל ברובע א' - שנקרא על שם ענן הנשיא. בית הכנסת החדש, כתר תורה, נקרא על שם הרב אהרון בן אשר, שניקד והטעים את הנוסח המקובל של התורה בכל זרמי ישראל.
בית הכנסת כתר תורה בא לענות על הצורך של בני העדה הרבים שהיגרו מערי הסביבה אל העיר אשדוד והתגוררו בעיקר בשכונות החדשות של אשדוד.
That is false.
Until the return from Babylon there is no mention of the Oral Torah.
Moreover, during the historical period until the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, there were TWO main groups that rejected the Oral Torah
So your second statement here is again, false.
And that is the reason the Pharisees created their various additions to the Law (yes, additions) to elaborate on what kinds of work are permissible or not
As to Lev 16:21 And you shall hold this as a perpetual statute: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls and do no work at all, whether it is a natural of your own country or a stranger that sojourns among you; --> the Oral Torah contains the deliberations of WHAT this means - read the Talmudic explanation.
But as the Talmud evidences, this is based on discussion of the interpretation and is not as old as the written Torah.
I don't comment on it's accuracy or holiness, I just point out that it is demonstrably not as old as the written Torah and in fact its finalization dates to 600 to 800 AD.
There is no disconnect - the Pharisees, the sect that arose only after the Babylonian exile had a claim of an Oral Torah, but they came to power only with the fall of the Hasmoneans
Matthew 23 points to what the Pharisees stated as the Oral Law - not yet codified, hence added on again and again until Chalakha is finalized around 600 to 800 AD
"My disagreement"?? This is not my disagreement - this was a 2nd temple Jewish sect disgareement between the Pharisee sect and the Jesus-movement sect of 2nd temple Judaism.
The Pharisee sect is the Rabbinical Judaism we call today and the Jesus-movement sect is the Christianity we call today
This is the same "Hadithic science" that Hadith writers used to define "Sahih" hadiths - a game of chinese whispers that A heard from B who heard from C.....
Yet this has multiple flaws:
Matthew 23:2 to 4 is on the contrary an accusation "The Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses... All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. -- net-net, they HAVE seated, not that they deserve it. They teach the Written Torah as remember they are constrained by the Sadducees who abhore the Pharisee created Oral Torah.
The examples say nothing about an Oral Torah -- which is why the Sadducees and Essenes in the past and the Karaite Jews of today reject the Oral Torah
That is false
The Samaritans say that AMONG their ancestry were people of the Tribe of Benjamin. They claim northern Israeli ancestry and genetically they do have the Cohen gene
And yet the genes and the history of the Samaritans contradict that they are outsiders - they are genetically the same as the Judaens
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