Posted on 05/02/2013 8:45:09 AM PDT by Seizethecarp
The horrific crash of a 747-400 at Bagram (here) has yet to be fully investigated and claims are already being made that it was a stall caused by a loose cargo that caused tail of the aircraft to drop and the nose to rise depriving the wings of lift.
Maybe.
The Bagram 747 crash has many similarities to the even more horrific crash of AWACS flight Yukla-27, (here) which was caused by the aircraft striking at least two Canada Geese in the Runway Kill Zone (RKZ) as discussed on an earlier post on this blog (here).
Terrorists familiar with the vulnerability of large jet airliners in the RKZ could produce a nearly identical or very similar crash profile to the Bagram event. They could do this by mining the Bagram runway with autonomous GPS-guided multi-copters placed exactly where they would collide with each jet turbine as the 747-400 passed through the RKZ of the Bagram runway.
I think you meant that for the original poster.
Clearly load shift.
Way too much conspiracy BS lately.
Great link ... thanks for that.
Another 12-1500 feet of altitude and it might have been the most impressive ‘buzzing’ of the field ever recorded.
Maybe in a Cessna 150 but more like 5,000’ in a 747
It’s a stall.
Something like this happened to a small commuter jet a few years back, if I remember correctly.
The cause of that commuter accident was incorrect center-of-gravity loading.
I’m betting it’s the same thing here.
And - perhaps Boeing changed the design, but I do not remember 747-400 having the rather normal nose profile that I think I’m seeing in that movie (not that the type of plane matters...if one Obamas up the CG, any plane will perform like liberal economists do).
National Air Cargo is located in Orchard Park, NY a suburb of Buffalo. My son used to work for the company.
I’ve also thought that maybe the practice is for jets departing that base to take off at a steep angle to avoid possible fire from the ground and in this case the crew just stalled the thing. I used to worry about that happening whenever my family flew out of Ontario or Burbank in SoCal.
“If you watch the video is pretty obvious they were climbing at too steep of an angle and the plane simply stalled.”
Maybe. Maybe not so obvious.
I have watched a lot of take-offs and take-off video and it is very hard to assess from the ground at the end of a runway the angle of ascent of a jetliner.
The four engines on the 747-400 are extremely powerful and all jets taking off from Bagram depart at a high angle of ascent to avoid small arms and RPG fire.
Two things have been noted by expert observers about this stall:
1. The aircraft appears to have lost thrust and with resulting loss of airspeed at a rate greater than could be accounted for only by a stall caused by too high an attack angle.
2. The undercarriage appears to have been fully extended at the time of the crash when it would have been expected to have been fully or at least partially retracted a 1,200 feet that the aircraft is estimated to have attained prior to the plunge. This could indicate that an engine thrust malfunction occurred at or shortly after the “go-no go” point on the runway called V1 was passed and pilots are trained (drilled) to “take the problem into the air.”
Attempting to abort a take-off after V1 speed is attained will far more likely result in going off the end of the runway with loss of the aircraft and loss of life on the plane and on the ground. This is why the zone between V1 and VR (rotation for lift-off) has been called “The Runway Kill Zone” on the blog of that name. V1-VR is a zone where terrorists an knock out one or more engines using GPS guided drones and place the pilots in a situation that they cannot recover from.
The sad story of AWACS flight Yukla 27, which hit at least two Canada Geese in the runway kill zone (RKZ) can now be reverse-engineered by terrorists, as explained on the RKZ blog.
I don’t claim that the Bagram 747 crash was caused by terrorists, but, IMO, the drone technology now exists for terrorists to replicate this crash intentionally and steps must be taken to identify the runway kill zone (RKZ) for all flights protect all airfields from GPS-guided drone attacks in the RKZ.
The public needs to be alert to all suspicious drone activities near airports (no, not RC model enthusiasts at known model airfields even if near airports) and to report them to authorities.
Once that occurs at takeoff there is no maneuver sufficient to correct from that pitch up, tail down stall.
You don't have sufficient speed, thrust, or altitude to regain control.
This story says Florida based company then in the next paragraph says its based at Willow run.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/ypsilanti/ypsilanti-man-among-7-killed-in-afghan-crash/
Its obviously a global company so I’m guessing this particular plane or crew were Michigan based
“but more like 5,000’ in a 747”
Maybe, but the plane has rolled wings level and nose is only about 25-30 degrees down. He had obviously regained some aerodynamic control, but at that point gravity was still exceeding lift. My only point was I think the aircraft was entirely flyable, give sufficient altitude to recover.
“There was no engine failure.”
I see a loss of thrust. It has been pointed out that the fact that the landing gear was still extended on impact points to possible recognition by the crew of a problem almost immediately after take-off that interrupted retraction of the gear, which should have been well underway at 1,200 feet, according to some claimed expert comments.
The video on the TV news last night was awsome but so deadly to see such a huge aircraft fall out of the sky. Another sad day for families of the dead crew.
The steep takeoff angle could have contributed to a load-shift. The load may not have shifted on a normal takeoff.
“They had the guys on live when cargo shift was mentioned before the 747 hit the earth.”
Did they? That is a claim. A lot of what is reported right after an incident turns out to be bogus, as we just saw in Boston. I will await the cockpit recorder.
The Runway Kill Zone blog is not claiming that this event WAS a terrorist attack, but only that a terrorist could intentionally achieve a similar result. Note that as few as two Canada Geese caused a similar stall and crash of an AWACS in Alaska, as explained and linked to on the blog.
Indeed. Especially as the cargo was vehicles. Someone screwed up on the tie-downs, either not properly attached, or inadequate for the load. Something slipped, connectors snapped, and instant major CG shift in the most dangerous portion of the flight. . .
Check the National Air Cargo website. http://www.nationalaircargo.com/default.aspx
I see a loss of lift. That is different than a loss of thrust.
This accident probably left the black boxes fully recoverable, so real data should be available to the accident investigators soon. No need to pander to knee-jerk conspiracy theorists about hypothetical GPS drone attacks.
The typical consumer grade quadcopter probably doesn't have enough mass to constitute a serious threat anyway. I bet a golden BB attack would have a higher probability of success.
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