Posted on 12/04/2009 9:55:41 PM PST by Gordon Greene
Arguing with Idiots… Part Deaux (A full-frontal assault on the Temple of Darwin) (Link to PDF).
(I know I’ve done rants like this before, but you guys are worth it!)
Dear worshippers of Darwin and lovers of self,
My personal (condensed) declaration of faith:
I believe in the God of the Bible. I believe in the Bible. I believe what it says. I believe, unashamedly that God is the Creator of the Universe and that He created it just as described in the Genesis account. I believe the only way to receive salvation is to believe and receive Jesus Christ as your savior. I believe that if you do not accept Jesus as your savior then you will spend eternity in the lake of fire, created for Satan and his followers… separated forever from God.
My personal (condensed) declaration of allegiance to American values:
I believe that the founding Fathers had faith in and worshipped the God of the Bible. I believe the Founders trusted God and the laws of God to be a guide and to provide the framework for what would become the United States of America. I believe that the Founders incorporated those values into our founding documents including the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I believe that very same Godly, Biblical foundation is what has sustained us as a nation for over 200 years. I believe the same is why this nation has been blessed beyond any other nation in history. I believe forsaking those principles is what is plunging this country headlong into socialism. I believe if we, as a people do not turn back to God and to His truth, this great nation has seen its best days.
Now, my message to the evolutionists and atheists on freerepublic…
You continually disgrace and shame yourselves and this site by purposely attempting to offend those who believe in God and Creation and frankly, I'm amazed it has gone on this long. The honest debate over differences of opinion are welcome on this site (correct me if I’m wrong) but even more-so the promotion of the God-centered foundation of our country and government. Yet you make it a playground for your near-pornographic display of anti-Christian rhetoric. Do I and others respond in an other-than kind way from time to time? Absolutely! That's what people do when you offer a constant barrage of insults and deliver responses dripping with hollow, moral superiority. Like many, I tried at first to reason with you. I found that there is no reasoning with the true-believers in the Temple of Darwin (with rare exception, I must note). So I barb… it’s my way of dealing with it.
From time to time one of you may pretend to seek an honest argument or answer only to turn it into a battle of context, performing hopeless and pointless contortions of the English language. Your mental gymnastics are generally childlike and wholly unnecessary. All you would have to do is to say you don’t have the mental capacity to understand the argument and that would be that… but that is not your goal.
You have this sick wish to see those who literally interpret the Bible and faithful Christians into converts of the radical wing of the Temple of Darwin or, at the very least to make an example of their comments (unsuccessfully, as a general rule). Then you can take their replies to your Darwin’s Temple websites and display them in the midst of those ungodly freak shows.
Earlier, I was questioned as to whether it was fair of me to say that you lead children into hell. My question is, “Is it fair of you to do so?” In my estimation, that’s exactly what you’re doing when you shove your unfounded faith in dry bones down the throats of schoolchildren. You claim we have nothing on which to base our faith in God and Creation, yet I suggest to you there is no evidence of evolution in the way that you teach and believe it… no proof of inter-species evolution taking place and no evidence that life was formed in a way that disputes the Biblical account. There is much more circumstantial evidence in the Creation account in Genesis than what you place your faith in, yet that is not my primary argument this evening.
Here’s the beef: most of you troll posts with a religious bent for the express purpose of inserting chaos into the equation. In that, you are no better than the community organizers at ACORN. You attempt to confuse, divide, destroy and deride those who believe your religion to be false. Yet, your religion is more than false; it rises to the level of cult. Its followers are brainwashed by manufactured statistics as if Al Gore himself were beating on the pulpit, loudly testifying to the dangers of non-belief. And you not only believe the lies, you are some of its chief priests!
Like the climate mongers and the climatologists at CRU, your actions do have consequences. However, the disastrous effects of your insidious message are far more devastating than the physical and monetary cost of the climate hoax. Your target is the soul of man. Since the dawning of the Age of Darwinism, millions of men, women and children have fallen victim, maybe even you. And for those who claim to be Christian and evolutionists, I offer this from one of my recent responses…
“If you draw evolution out to its ultimate end it either:
A. Denies the existence of God.
B. Denies His relevance.
C. Boils the Word of God down to a collection of allegory.
Unlike a lot of folks that share my beliefs in God and Creation, I don’t believe that faith in evolution automatically excludes you from Christianity. People are in different stages of their walk and some find the truth more slowly than others but that doesn’t mean they aren’t saved. But if you follow the (il)logic of evolution very far, it discounts faith in the God of the Bible.”
That is to say most would have to conclude from studying Evolution that God does not exist. Being a priest and a disseminator of the gospel of Evolution is no different than being in a sinking ship and destroying the only life preserver because you believe if you can’t have it, no one else should.
If you were honest with yourselves you would admit there is no honest scientific evidence proving evolution. Most of you have heard the truth of the Bible and chosen to reject it. I personally believe (again… my personal belief) that you and those who promote the baseless theory of evolution will be judged by God for leading others to discount God as well.
Matthew 18:6 (New International Version)
6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Romans 1:22 (New International Version)
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Exodus 20:11 (New International Version)
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
John 1:3 (New International Version)
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
2 Chronicles 7:14 (New International Version)
7If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Prior to the Reformation the population of Europe (the only place with substantial numbers of Christians at the time) ranged from roughly 30 million to 100 million. Just in the 20th Century alone there have been billions of non-Catholic Christians. Your 99% figure cannot be correct.
However, even if, for arguments sake, the number were reduced to 89% or 79% the point is still valid.
While I agree that your overall point is valid...time for another nitpick! Catholics who died unaware of the Theory of Evolution (which includes every one of them who died before the mid-19th Century) don't count, so he's technically not calling them idiots, only the billions who have lived since then.
“The difference is that my position can be influenced by reason where yours, as you admit, cannot.”
Actually - it is an “Escape from Reason” to assert that God is not there and the claims of the Bible are not true.
If you are unafraid of investigating the REASON for the certainty of Christian faith - I would strongly suggest you invest in these 3 classics from Francis Schaeffer:
The God Who Is There
He Is There and He Is Not Silent
Escape from Reason
God is the Creator of this universe and of all mankind, including you and we are to “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
REASON demands the verdict that only an intelligent designer could create the intricate complexities of all we find in the universe.
Random chance events over time simply cannot explain WHAT IS.
And what evidence do you have that the Creator is your God and not, for example, Zeus?
Some (not a majority) of the Founding Fathers were Deists, such as Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Ethan Allen, and Benjamin Franklin.
it’s VERY clear that the whole ‘seperation of church and state’ arguments are based on lies and false interpretations of hte constitution and false interpretations of the statements and intents of our founding fathers
Was Founding Father Thomas Jefferson making a false statement about the statement and intents of the Founding Fathers when he invented the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state"?
Very cool!
Your numbers just don't add up. The total number on non Catholic Christians who have ever lived is approximately one billion. Conservative estimates of the total number of Catholics (all catholic sects that accept Apostolic Succession) is at least four times that number. Were I to use the YEC litmus test of only counting as Christians those who believe as I do, the number would be 100%.
"Catholics who died unaware of the Theory of Evolution (which includes every one of them who died before the mid-19th Century) don't count, so he's technically not calling them idiots, only the billions who have lived since then."
I am including those who accept the divine guidance of the Church. The Church did not discover anything new in Scripture to support the compatibility of the bible and science, the affirmed it and evolution helps explain it.
LOL...let me know when the novel-length argument clinic comes out :o)
The Bible which archaeological discoveries have continued to find to be accurate in its historical record along with the historical certainty of the life of the person Jesus (of Nazareth/Christ),,,,just for a start.
Yes, source for that comment.
Wishful thinking.....
Shall we bring up Catholic Church history and practices in other heavily Catholic countries around the world even today, if you're going to go that route?
I find it odd that you keep using this language denying speciation. Even odder that you're not the only antievolutionist here who makes a habit of doing so.
Although belief in fixed species, and that each individual species was separately created, was common among 19th Century creationists, I'm not aware of any leading modern creationist who argues for fixed species. Even the most conservative "special creationists" insist that, in some cases, entire Families represent a single "created kind," and therefore presumably exhibit common ancestry within the "kind".
The example mostly commonly cited by creationists themselves is the "horse kind," i.e. Equids. This includes horses, asses, and zebras. By the most "lumping," least "splitting" classification, there is one species of horse, three of ass and three of zebra. In addition to these seven living species, there are a couple dozen extinct. Other often cited "kinds" (creationists use the term "baramins") are equally or more diverse, e.g. dogs (Canidae), cats (Felidae), and camels (Camelidae, incl camels, dromedaries, llamas, alpacas, vicuñas, and guanacos).
Sometimes creationists have identified multiple Families or entire Sub-Orders as holobaramins (single created kinds) e.g. Mysticeti (filter feeding whales).
At least one entire Order, Testudines -- i.e. all turtles, tortoises and terrapins -- has been cited by multiple creationists as a possible "kind". This would link, for instance, the fully aquatic sea turtles and the desert dwelling tortoises by common descent! (Granted testudines are usually designated an "apobaramin," meaning it could contain more than one single created kinds or "holobaramin," but the point being that even creationists can't draw the lines, if any.)
[For the preceding examples, see the following article and "Table 1" linked therein: The Current Status of Baraminology (Creation Research Society Quarterly Journal, 2006). Find more on "baraminology" here.]
What's more, strict young earth creationists, at least, those who believe in a global flood (Noah's Flood), hold that speciation not only occurred thousands and thousands of times, but that it occurred thousands of times faster than any evolutionist would consider plausible. (I.e., in order to generate current levels of species diversity from the small numbers of "kinds" preserved during the flood.)
So here are professional "creation scientists" universally conceding that various, often large, groups of relatively diverse organisms (most frequently corresponding to about the Family level of conventional classification, IOW several steps up from the species level) are related by common ancestry -- and yet many, if not most, of the lay creationists here on FR are pretending like it's still 1840, and denying speciation altogether.
This is quite remarkable. It's as if the evolutionists here were ignoring Darwin and instead spouting Lamarck. How can creationists be so ignorant of creationism?!
The Catholic Church didn’t even really come into existence until sometime in the 300’s AD.
There were churches all across the known world before then, so all those Christians need to be not counted.
Not every Christian during the churches heyday belonged to the Catholic Church and I doubt there’s any way of knowing how many that would be.
The Protestant Reformation began in 1517 some 500 years ago. Al those people need to be considered in the category of Christian outside the Catholic Church. That leaves the Catholic Church about 1200 years of preeminence and easily 800 years of either not existing or having competition.
Then there’s the presumption that everyone who is a Catholic is by default a Christian. Does that include people who didn’t care, who didn’t want to be, who refused to live like Catholics? Those who flaunted religious living? Are Catholics Christians by default simply because of the name they bear, regardless of their beliefs, lifestyle, or behavior?
Considering those figures, and that much of the time that Catholic Church was in power, Europe was being devastated by war and plague, how do you arrive at the percentage that Catholics comprise 99% of the Christians who ever lived?
As you consider yourself a scientist and no doubt consider accuracy and evidence to be important, please back up your contention about your statement in a way befitting a scientist.
Precedent is that order and complexity are the result of intelligence.
What evidence do you have that order and complexity can come into existence without an intelligent impetus?
No assuming the conclusion, either.
Where do you get your numbers?
The total number on non Catholic Christians who have ever lived is approximately one billion. Conservative estimates of the total number of Catholics (all catholic sects that accept Apostolic Succession) is at least four times that number.
One billion to 4 billion? That's a 1:4 ratio.
What kind of math are you doing that determines that that is 99%?
Spain over the past 150 years would be a good start. Or Mexico.
I was actually thinking of a lot of South American countries, like Colombia for example, but those other two would work.
Perhaps it would be well to remember what church it was that was involved in the Galileo controversy, for example.....
“Thank you so much, Gordon Greene, for these great sources!!!!”
You’re welcome, but thank John.
GG
“The difference is that my position can be influenced by reason where yours, as you admit, cannot.”
Nope... I never admitted any such thing. Reason could absolutely influence me. Where I have a problem with evolutionists is when they are presented with reason and they do not know how to respond they resort to attacks, whining, name-calling, etc. I admit I’ve been a bit forward at times but it’s honestly in response to the attitude of the majority of evolutionists on this site. The only way I can get anything out of most of them is to fight fire with fire and sometimes I learn where they are coming from.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a couple of evolutionists on the site that have been not only civil, but reasonable, pleasant and a joy to debate. That, however has been the exception and not the rule.
“Now that you are done taking your bows can we get back to the part where you call those who believe in evolution idiots and explore how that applies to Catholics who comprose 99% of all of the Christians who have ever lived?”
No, because your premise is wholly manufactured and sheer stupidity. Not to mention contextually challenged.
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