Posted on 06/05/2009 9:01:38 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Attendance at Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston would decline rapidly to the point that the property would be sold back to the city of Houston to pay off ministry debts. It would then be re-converted into a basketball arena.
(Excerpt) Read more at kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com ...
It's not too late. As one who has experienced life from both sides, I can say I am happier, more productive and less anxious and fearful now that I understand the Scriptural truth that God is in control of His creation, and that he breathed my name, along with the names of all believers, at the same time He ordained the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
All Christians should know that comfort. Pity the secular world and even some misguided Christians seek to demote the grace of God into something we can (futily) try to accomplish ourselves when Christ does it all for us by His finished work on the cross.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Sounds happy to me. Almost as if Paul is reminding us this life actually is the way we "wished it to be."
Ping to the link in post 60. Fate is not God, and fatalism is not Calvinism.
"He melted into tears, not of pain, but of relief and joy. In that moment, he understood the difference between falling into the grinding power of a machine and into the loving hands of a father."
The problem that people have with Calvinism is not because they have mistaken God for a machine. The author believes this to be a reasonable analogy to help us distinguish supposed "fatalistic" events that are brought about by brute natural forces, and predestined events brought about by an intelligent God.
However, there is a major problem with this analogy. The story described talks of a man and a boy where the boy has the ability to freely respond to what the man does. The boy can be frightened at first to think that he has been swept up by the windmill, and then relieved to find out that he is being fairly punished by his father.
However in a Calvinistic world the boy can not choose to do anything, even with regard to his attitude toward the world. For in a Calvinist world EVERYTHING has been predestined. Not just who we are born as and who we are born to, but how we react and what attitude we take at every step of our lives.
The true analogy would be the end of 1984 where the socialistic state through torture and propaganda surrounding the false image of Big Brother finally convinces Winston Smith that two and two actually do equal five.
In this case the state not only determines what Winston Smith says, but also determines his attitude toward what he does. He loves Big Brother.
This is what those of us opposed to Calvinism dislike about Calvinism. Calvinists can't claim that just because we are led around by the nose by an intelligent and loving being that that is somehow better than being led around by the nose by a galavanting pig. If our every thought, emotion, and attitude has been predetermined from all time then we are just avatars in God's virtual reality sim.
If that were true, why should a believer in Jesus Christ worry?
Do you think the will of God does not “stand prior to everything?”
An infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing creator created a universe where his greatest creation is no better than an avatar in a virtual reality machine.
Maybe the God that created this universe isn't all that infinite, powerful, or knowledgeable? Maybe he was just a good Mormon that lived a good life on the planet Zotho a few thousands years ago and this is the best he could come up with.
You didn’t answer the question. Why would Christians worry if the Triune God of all creation was in control of His creation?
That's not scriptural.
There are few things more obvious in this life than the fact that God does NOT give all men eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart of flesh to believe and a renewed mind with which to know the things of God and trust in the truth of the risen Christ as Lord and Savior.
”But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” — John 10:26
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” — Phil. 2:13
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” — Jeremiah 10:23
“For who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? — 1 Corinthians 4:7
“...even to morrow the Lord will show who are His, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will He cause to come near unto him.” — Numbers 16:5”For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” — 1 Corinthians 2:11-12
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." -- John 12:37-40 "But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
If you get the time, a wonderful and Scriptural understanding of God's hand in all things is presented here...
"Conversion and salvation must, in the very nature of things, be wrought and effected either by ourselves alone, or by ourselves and God together, or solely by God Himself. The Pelagians were for the first. The Arminians are for the second. True believers are for the last, because the last hypothesis, and that only, is built on the strongest evidence of Scripture, reason and experience: it most effectually hides pride from man, and sets the crown of undivided praise upon the head, or rather casts it at the feet, of that glorious Triune God, who worketh all in all. But this is a crown which no sinners ever yet cast before the throne of God who were not first led into the transporting views of His gracious decree to save, freely and of His own will, the people of His eternal love. Exclude, therefore, O Christian, the article of sovereign predestination from thy ministry or from thy faith, and acquit thyself if thou art able from the charge of robbing God." -- Absolute Predestination, by Jerome Zanchius, Chapter 5, III, (3)...
I particularly like the fifth and final chapter where Zanchius offers even more Scriptural support for God's perfect and complete sovereignty...
To sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, except to them for whom it hath been prepared by My Father," q.d., salvation is not a precarious thing; the seats in glory were disposed of long ago in My Father's intention and destination; I can only assign them to such persons as they were prepared for in His decree" (Matt. xx. 23). "Many are called, but few chosen" (Matt. xxii), i.e., all who live under the sound of the Gospel will not be saved, but those only who are elected unto life. "For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. xxiv.), and ibid, "If it were possible, they should deceive the very elect," where, it is plain, Christ teaches two things: (1) that there is a certain number of persons who are elected to grace and glory, and (2) that it is absolutely impossible for these to be deceived into total or final apostacy. "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. xxv.). "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to them that are without" (i.e., out of the pale of election) "all these things are done in parables; that seeing, they may see, and not perceive and hearing, they may hear, and not understand: lest at any time, they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them" (Mark xi.). "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven" (Luke x.). "It is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Luke xii.). "One shall be taken and the other shall be left" (Luke xvii.). "All that the Father hath given Me shall come unto Me" (John vi.), as much as to say these shall but the rest cannot. "He that is of God, heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John viii.), not chosen of Him. "Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep" (John x.). "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you" (John xv.). I come now, second, to the Apostles. "They believed not on Him, that the saying of Esais the prophet might be fulfilled which he spake; Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them" (John xii. 37, 40). Without certain prescience there could be no prophecy, and without predestination no certain prescience. Therefore, in order to the accomplishment of prophecy, prescience and predestination, we are expressly told that these persons could not believe; they were not able, it was out of their power. In short, there is hardly a page in St. John's Gospel which does not, either expressly or implicitly, make mention of election and reprobation. St. Peter says of Judas, "Men and brethren, the Scriptures must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of David, spake before concerning Judas" (Acts i.). So, "That he might go to his own place" (ver. xxv.), to the place of punishment appointed for him. "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and with wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts ii.). "Herod, and Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts iv.): predestinated should come to pass. "And as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts xiii.): designed, destined or appointed unto life. Concerning the Apostle Paul, what shall I say? Everyone that has read his epistles knows that they teem with predestination from beginning to end.[1] I shall only give one or two passages, and begin with that famous chain: "whom He did foreknow" (or forelove, for to know often signifies in Scripture to love) "He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren," that, as in all things else, so in the business of election Christ might have the pre-eminence, He being first chosen as a Saviour, and they in Him to be saved by Him: "moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified" (Rom. viii.). Chapters ix., x. and xi. of the same epistle are professed dissertations on, and illustrations of the doctrine of God's decrees, and contain, likewise, a solution of the principal objections brought against that doctrine. "Who separated me from my mother's womb and called me by His grace" (Gal. i.). The first chapter of Ephesians treats of little else but election and predestination. After observing that the reprobates perish wilfully, the apostle, by a striking transition, addresses himself to the elect Thessalonians, saying, "But we are bound to give thanks unto God always for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath, from the beginning, chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess. ii.). "Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose, and grace, which was given us in Christ before the world began" (2 Tim. i.). St. Jude, on the other hand, describes the reprobate as "ungodly men, who were, of old, foreordained to this condemnation." Another apostle makes this peremptory declaration, "Who stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed: but ye are a chosen generation [an elect race], a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, a people purchased to be His peculiar property and possession" (1 Peter ii. 8, 9); to all which may be added, "Whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Rev. xvii. 8). All these texts are but as an handful to the harvest, and yet are both numerous and weighty enough to decide the point with any who pay the least deference to Scripture authority. And let it be observed that Christ and His apostles delivered these matters, not to some privileged persons only, but to all at large who had ears to hear and eyes to read. Therefore, it is incumbent on every faithful minister to tread in their steps by doing likewise, nor is that minister a faithful one, faithful to Christ, to truth and to souls, who keeps back any part of the counsel of God, and buries those doctrines in silence which he is commanded to preach upon the house-tops..."To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" (Matt. xiii.).
(I'm sorry this is so long. There's a lot more at the site and I wanted to reread this myself. This assurance of God's predestining choice and eternal, unfailing guidance is a gift given by God that should be enjoyed by all His children -- to know we were loved before we loved, and that is the only reason we are able to return the love.)
This is not all kinds of men, but all men.
Thus, while we ourselves are unable to come to Him, His grace allows us that opportunity, while still providing us our Free Will.
Besides if I were a devout Calvinist (and I somehow can't remember Calvin's name coming up anywhere in the Bible ... but let that pass) then I would worry or not worry based on what God had pre-ordained from all time.
So to answer your question (from a Calvinist perspective): some people will worry and some people won't worry just cuz God determined that they would or would not worry. And because God is perfect and His creation is perfect people will only worry or will only not worry at those precise instances in time when God's perfection demands it.
Obviously being puny unimportant avatars we are completely incapable of understanding why it is that some people worry and some don't and that some people worry sometimes, but don't worry other times. We don't have a clue as to how this fits into God's perfect plan for all of humanity.
But from a non-Calvinist point of view people can freely choose to worry or not as they please. And having free independent beings in a universe all of a sudden makes it a much more interesting place that is more worthy of an almighty God, and not just a mere computer gamer.
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." -- 1 Corinthians 15:10
Paul tells us everything he is is by the free, unmerited gift of the Holy Spirit within him. He goes so far as to remind us that even his extra effort of labor is accomplished by "the grace of God which was with me."
This is why the Reformation was fought and what we as Protestants are sadly conceding back to Rome -- we are saved not our own works of righteousness but Christ's righteousness and obedience being graciously imputed to men in order that they believe and be saved, according to the will of God and His plan and purpose for creation from before the foundation of the world.
As I've said to several Arminians who later became Calvinists, just try thinking that every thought, word and deed is ordained by God for His glory. Of course we still err because we are still fallible men and women, and if we say there is no sin in us we are liars, as Paul said.
But by the grace of God, His unmerited gift of the sanctifying Holy Spirit works Christ's righteousness in us and we become what He has ordained us to be -- children of the Triune God.
So if by "avatar" you mean "a graphical image that represents a person, as on the Internet," then we should all be so fortunate as to be "avatars" for, and by and through Jesus Christ "by whom all things consist.)
But do all men see this grace with open eyes" With a heart of flesh? With a renewed mind?
It would be nice, but it's obviously not true. Only those given to know the things of God will know the things of God.
Read the verses. I once believed like you. Then I read Scripture with new eyes and beheld the sovereignty of God in all things. FWIW, life is richer on this side of the debate.
Is the natural man "free" to choose righteousness?
And having free independent beings in a universe all of a sudden makes it a much more interesting place that is more worthy of an almighty God
Worthy? You believe fallen man is "worthy" of God?
Read Romans.
I can't imagine how. If I believed as you do, I'd have to believe that God created people for the sole purpose to throw them into Hell.
That is neither just nor merciful, and God is the epitome of both Justice and Mercy.
And yet He makes both kinds of people anyway, knowing exactly where each person ends up.
Scripture tells us mercy triumphs over justice. Do you see that happening for everyone?
Knowing decisions beforehand is not the same as causing those decisions.
Decisions made because He pre-destined those decisions are not really decisions at all. If we don't make any decisions, how can we truly love Him? If we don't truly love Him, how can we go to Heaven to be with Him?
Scripture tells us mercy triumphs over justice. Do you see that happening for everyone?
Is it not mercy to allow one to pass his own sentence? If you accept the mercy, it most definitely triumphs over the justice we deserve.
Acceptance is the part we must play.
The problem with Calvinists is that they have to use all sorts of twisted logic and complicated arguments to reach their conclusion that God “chooses” in advance to condemn some to hell without regard to the possibility that God has given every man sufficient grace to understand the Gospel.
Many Calvinists even admit that their conclusion is at odds with logic and the notion of a just, yet merciful God. Their answer that they simply have taken the Bible for what it says is a lame excuse for not confronting the real problems of Calvinism as believed by a number of people on FR.
It never seems to work, but I am only planting the seeds here.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.