But what about Hobbes?
Posted on 06/05/2009 9:01:38 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Attendance at Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston would decline rapidly to the point that the property would be sold back to the city of Houston to pay off ministry debts. It would then be re-converted into a basketball arena.
(Excerpt) Read more at kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com ...
Calvinism always seem the way I wished life was. You are born to go to heaven or you were not. Always seemed like a ticket to party. If your destiny was already determined … party on.
That’s not how it works, though, is it? They’re called the “Frozen Chosen.”
Just having some fun.
CalvinISM is a heady roundup of theological thoughts composed of 1,000,000 words and 40 scripture verses. Sitting on the shelf, it is mostly benign.
The CalvinIST is another animal altogether. He takes the theology from the shelf and imagines that he has substantially closed the gap described in Isa. 55:9. Taking himself quite seriously, not being a good listener, and believing himself to be theological royalty, he is out to re-proselytize the evangelical church. For him, it is less a theology and more a personality trait.
But what about Hobbes?
Uh, not quite. I've pinged some of my favorite Calvinists on the board to help you out. :)
Isn't it a basic corollary of Calvinism that there aren't going to be that many Calvinists? The way is narrow, etc.
Reformationist tend to think that all ills of religion would be solved by strong 5 point Calvanism.....
But Joel’s bad theology is not FOCUSED on salvation, rather than a philosophy of health and wealth...
BTW, if Calvanism is SO important of a doctrine, why was it not codified clearly in scripture - that is, require over 1,000 years and John Calvin to illuminate us to his theory of salvation?
What happened to SOLO SCRIPTURA?
I don’t need 5 points, I need the bible.
I don’t need a seminary degree, I need love, and grace, and peace.
If Joel O got up tomorrow and started preaching 5 point Calvanism, but kept teaching health and wealth, he would have just as many followers.
Nobody wants the path of the Cross. That’s what offends people.
Ah, gentle Berean -
I encourage you to examine the Scriptures and see which of any of Calvin’s main theological points is wrong. To dismiss it as some doctrine just coughed up in the middle ages is not fair. It is a system of theology, granted, but no one has ever claimed it is new revelation.
It is distilled as “the five points” for convenience, so don’t let the rigidity of the description bother you. We have other names for doctrines: “dispensationalism.” “Scofieldism” “charismatic” “health and wealth gospel” “covenant theology” “anabaptist” “reformed” “trinitarian” etc. Each of these is shorthand for an interpretation of scripture.
I don’t hold to all of the above. My point is, examine “Calvinism” like a good Berean, and tell us what points contradict Scripture.
A good Calvinist is always 100% Sola Scriptura. We do not believe we need John Calvin to show us the way of salvation. We believe the way of salvation has been available to mankind since the Fall. We acknowledge Calvin as a good theologian who outlined biblical doctrine in a solid, comprehensible way. We do not view him as infallible, nor as any type of savior, just a good pastor.
party on.
It was predestined that I should respond.
I took a class from Kim Riddlebarger more than a few years ago. Thanks for linking to his blog.
Joel’s wife would have to drive a 87 Escort instead of her two Mercedes Benz
Several points
Observe the apostles’ life after conversion and enlightenment.
Observe John Calvin’s life after Institutes.
I think there are many more scriptures about God not wanting that any should perish, and loving even the Gentiles, etc than there are the odd point to be pulled together to form Pre-determinism.
I spent 5 years proving to myself searching the scriptures about the nature of the Godhead (commonly called the Trinity), even though I grew up in a Church that believe in the Trinity. I have (and do) attend a “Reformed” church, although I do not serve as an elder, precisely because there is a statement of “belief” required that goes beyond what is provable by scripture.
I also looked at one time at attending a “bible” church, but they wanted me to sign a statement that I agreed that the age of miracles and divine intervention by God was over....I asked them if they talked to God about this, and did he tell them this directly (Boy was that an ironic statement!).
I have examined closely Calvanism, and hold that God’s sacrifice in Christ was sufficient for the whole world, not just the elect. However, mankind will not have (accept) this, and so, the only sin unto death is not accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal savior.
For God so loved the world, he gave His only begotten... (now the world is one rotten place after the fall, He gave His Son for us WHILE we were yet rotten unrepentant sinners). For this is the power of the resurrection - bringing the DEAD back to life - everlasting life...If the elect were already “alive” spiritually, why would the cross be needed?
For The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Yes, he made us like a potter makes the clay, but he, just like the potter knows just what each of us can stand, and exactly where our flaws and strengths are. No man could stand in the face of God if God decided his fate. God is all powerful.
If God’s chosen were Israel, why then were the Gentiles grafted in? Were they not predetermined to be the chosen? Why were not they all saved? God can (as Paul said) just as easily graft us out. Clearly, God allows man some will in man to exist, because if it did not, then what is the explanation for Israel’s truculence?
Lots of ideas, there, but I’ll respond to a few anyway.
“Observe the apostles’ life after conversion and enlightenment. Observe John Calvin’s life after Institutes.”
All I know of the apostles’ lives are in Scripture. Generally they were very godly. Of course we know about Judas, and Peter, who denied but of course repented. As for John Calvin’s life after the Institutes, is there something grossly amiss? You will have to enlighten me about that.
Regardless, if Calvin was a complete toad, it would not make his Institutes particularly suspect. You’d have to show that those who agree with his interpretations of Scripture are usually complete toads. You attend a reformed church. I am going to assume that you love those brethren very dearly and would not accuse them of total deviant behavior or such, otherwise you would not be worshiping there.
“God not wanting that any should perish, and loving even the Gentiles, etc than there are the odd point to be pulled together to form Pre-determinism.”
Just at the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us that Jesus is a man, yet very God, so Scripture also tells us that God is not willing that any should perish, and yet those he foreknew, he also predestined. And so both statements must be true. Sola Scriptura.
“hold that God’s sacrifice in Christ was sufficient for the whole world, not just the elect.”
If so, I do believe the whole world would be saved. I do think it COULD have been sufficient, had He so willed it. I just think that if He DID will it, everyone would be a Christian. A joyous thought, but obviously that is not happening.
“If the elect were already “alive” spiritually, why would the cross be needed?”
I don’t believe that Calvin’s theology stated that the elect are already “alive” spiritually, but that God chose them from the foundation of the world. We do teach than men are dead in their sins until the Holy Spirit sovereignly grants them repentance unto life.
“If God’s chosen were Israel, why then were the Gentiles grafted in?”
Well, it is God’s grace, obviously. He began with Abel, and Seth, and as we watch the apparently very important genealogies unfold, we see the tent expand, and expand, and expand again. Jesus teaches that those who trust in Him ARE Abraham seed. It is a slowly unfolding covenant. It includes more and more souls. Even in the OT we see Gentiles grafted in, albeit rarely. Ruth comes to mind.
“God allows man some will,” yep, Pharoah hardened his heart. And yet God hardened Pharoah’s heart. Both statements are true according to God’s word.
I don’t pretend to understand everything God does or how He does it. But I do believe total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints are biblical doctrines, just as inerrancy of scripture, six day creation, the return of Christ, heaven, hell, and other doctrines are biblical. Calvin taught all these doctrines, as well.
Nope.
1) As they say, in heaven everyone will be a Calvinist.
"Calvinism, simply put, is the conviction, derived from the Bible, that God is the ultimate source and final reason for our salvation in Christ." -- John Newton, author of the hymn, "Amazing Grace."
2) God has elected His children from among all nations and races and eras. While each name has been ordained by God the total number is vast and includes a multitude of believers; as many as God has chosen to redeem by Christ's sacrifice.
"Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons (although as has already been shown, he believes that it is efficacious for the salvation of the large proportion of the human race); while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge which goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge which goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist..."
Hobbes was burned at the stake along with Michael Severtus by Calvin.
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