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To: Marie2

Several points

Observe the apostles’ life after conversion and enlightenment.
Observe John Calvin’s life after Institutes.

I think there are many more scriptures about God not wanting that any should perish, and loving even the Gentiles, etc than there are the odd point to be pulled together to form Pre-determinism.

I spent 5 years proving to myself searching the scriptures about the nature of the Godhead (commonly called the Trinity), even though I grew up in a Church that believe in the Trinity. I have (and do) attend a “Reformed” church, although I do not serve as an elder, precisely because there is a statement of “belief” required that goes beyond what is provable by scripture.

I also looked at one time at attending a “bible” church, but they wanted me to sign a statement that I agreed that the age of miracles and divine intervention by God was over....I asked them if they talked to God about this, and did he tell them this directly (Boy was that an ironic statement!).

I have examined closely Calvanism, and hold that God’s sacrifice in Christ was sufficient for the whole world, not just the elect. However, mankind will not have (accept) this, and so, the only sin unto death is not accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal savior.

For God so loved the world, he gave His only begotten... (now the world is one rotten place after the fall, He gave His Son for us WHILE we were yet rotten unrepentant sinners). For this is the power of the resurrection - bringing the DEAD back to life - everlasting life...If the elect were already “alive” spiritually, why would the cross be needed?

For The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yes, he made us like a potter makes the clay, but he, just like the potter knows just what each of us can stand, and exactly where our flaws and strengths are. No man could stand in the face of God if God decided his fate. God is all powerful.

If God’s chosen were Israel, why then were the Gentiles grafted in? Were they not predetermined to be the chosen? Why were not they all saved? God can (as Paul said) just as easily graft us out. Clearly, God allows man some will in man to exist, because if it did not, then what is the explanation for Israel’s truculence?


17 posted on 06/05/2009 10:54:16 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain

Lots of ideas, there, but I’ll respond to a few anyway.

“Observe the apostles’ life after conversion and enlightenment. Observe John Calvin’s life after Institutes.”

All I know of the apostles’ lives are in Scripture. Generally they were very godly. Of course we know about Judas, and Peter, who denied but of course repented. As for John Calvin’s life after the Institutes, is there something grossly amiss? You will have to enlighten me about that.

Regardless, if Calvin was a complete toad, it would not make his Institutes particularly suspect. You’d have to show that those who agree with his interpretations of Scripture are usually complete toads. You attend a reformed church. I am going to assume that you love those brethren very dearly and would not accuse them of total deviant behavior or such, otherwise you would not be worshiping there.

“God not wanting that any should perish, and loving even the Gentiles, etc than there are the odd point to be pulled together to form Pre-determinism.”

Just at the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us that Jesus is a man, yet very God, so Scripture also tells us that God is not willing that any should perish, and yet those he foreknew, he also predestined. And so both statements must be true. Sola Scriptura.

“hold that God’s sacrifice in Christ was sufficient for the whole world, not just the elect.”

If so, I do believe the whole world would be saved. I do think it COULD have been sufficient, had He so willed it. I just think that if He DID will it, everyone would be a Christian. A joyous thought, but obviously that is not happening.

“If the elect were already “alive” spiritually, why would the cross be needed?”

I don’t believe that Calvin’s theology stated that the elect are already “alive” spiritually, but that God chose them from the foundation of the world. We do teach than men are dead in their sins until the Holy Spirit sovereignly grants them repentance unto life.

“If God’s chosen were Israel, why then were the Gentiles grafted in?”

Well, it is God’s grace, obviously. He began with Abel, and Seth, and as we watch the apparently very important genealogies unfold, we see the tent expand, and expand, and expand again. Jesus teaches that those who trust in Him ARE Abraham seed. It is a slowly unfolding covenant. It includes more and more souls. Even in the OT we see Gentiles grafted in, albeit rarely. Ruth comes to mind.

“God allows man some will,” yep, Pharoah hardened his heart. And yet God hardened Pharoah’s heart. Both statements are true according to God’s word.

I don’t pretend to understand everything God does or how He does it. But I do believe total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints are biblical doctrines, just as inerrancy of scripture, six day creation, the return of Christ, heaven, hell, and other doctrines are biblical. Calvin taught all these doctrines, as well.


18 posted on 06/05/2009 11:42:06 PM PDT by Marie2 (The second mouse gets the cheese.)
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To: BereanBrain

Well said. Calvinists fail to see that we are ‘preordained’ to do good works and to be conformed to Christ’s image. Predestined to try our best to conform to Christ’s image. We are all commanded as Christians to win souls for Christ. The Great Commission is offensive to some, but we are all called to witness for Christ, “To whom much is given, much is expected.”


26 posted on 06/06/2009 6:59:12 AM PDT by kingpins10
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