Posted on 06/05/2009 9:01:38 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Attendance at Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston would decline rapidly to the point that the property would be sold back to the city of Houston to pay off ministry debts. It would then be re-converted into a basketball arena.
(Excerpt) Read more at kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com ...
lol. Calvin was peripherally involved in one man's death for heresy. The Roman Catholic Inquisition lasted for 600 years and murdered hundreds of thousands of men, women and children.
All that "blood" you're seeing isn't coming from Geneva, but from Rome and its lethal magisterium.
That is not an answer to my question. My question was, "Is Salvation available to all mankind?" Do you believe that God predestined each and every particular person to eteranal life or eternal damnation and theree is nothing that individual can decide to change that destiny? A lot of Calvinists believe this, but Calvin wrote (paraphrasing) that every man has been given sufficient grace to understand the message of the Gospel.
An arrogant pastor is a terrible thing. But I don’t know why you say Calvin was particularly arrogant.
You never heard of his involvement in the murder of Servitus?
Do you believe Calvin was a Christian? If not, why not. If so, you should not attack him on such a personal level. We should love one another.
I cannot judge the state of his salvation. I find that theologians who delve in minutia rather that the plain meaning of the Bible miss the message of the Bible by a wide margin. Thank God one does not have to half an in depth understanding of Calvinism to have eternal life, and I understand it far better than most.
If that is all Calvinism is, no one would have an argument. The exact same thing can be said about many churches/denominations.
Either/or.
Monergism/synergism.
I used to believe the latter. By the grace of God alone, I've been brought around to the former by the weight of Scriptural evidence.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:4-7 "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
"Conversion and salvation must, in the very nature of things, be wrought and effected either by ourselves alone, or by ourselves and God together, or solely by God Himself. The Pelagians were for the first. The Arminians are for the second. True believers are for the last, because the last hypothesis, and that only, is built on the strongest evidence of Scripture, reason and experience: it most effectually hides pride from man, and sets the crown of undivided praise upon the head, or rather casts it at the feet, of that glorious Triune God, who worketh all in all. But this is a crown which no sinners ever yet cast before the throne of God who were not first led into the transporting views of His gracious decree to save, freely and of His own will, the people of His eternal love. Exclude, therefore, O Christian, the article of sovereign predestination from thy ministry or from thy faith, and acquit thyself if thou art able from the charge of robbing God." -- Absolute Predestination, by Jerome Zanchius, Chapter 5, III, (3).
"For this reason we must observe at this juncture that the Spirit who applies the work of Christ is himself also a member of the ontological Trinity. He would have to be. Unless he were, the work of salvation would not be the work of God alone. If God was to be maintained in his incommunicable attributes the Spirit of God, not man, had to effect the salvation of man. The only alternative to this would be that man could at some point take the initiative in the matter of his own salvation. This would imply that the salvation wrought by Christ could be frustrated by man. Suppose that none should accept the salvation offered to them. In that case the whole of Christ's work would be in vain and the eternal God would be set at nought by temporal man. Even if we say that in the case of any one individual sinner the question of salvation is in the last analysis dependent upon man rather than upon God, that is, if we say that man can of himself accept or reject the gospel as he pleases, we have made the eternal God dependent upon man. We have then, in effect, denied the incommunicable attributes of God. If we refuse to mix the eternal and the temporal at the point of creation and at the point of the incarnation we must also refuse to mix them at the point of salvation." -- Cornelius Van Til, "Defense of the Faith"
"...even to morrow the LORD will shew who are His, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him." -- Numbers 16:5
Calvinism simply means that God is in charge of all of it from beginning to end. Christ, the "author and finisher of our faith."
The doctrine of justification by faith alone was debated during the Reformation on the deeper level of monergistic regeneration. This technical term must be explained. Monergism is derived from a combination of a prefix and a root. The prefix mono is used frequently in English to indicate that which is single or alone. The root comes from the verb “to work.” The erg of monergy comes into our language to indicate a unit of work or energy. When we put the prefix and root together, we get monergy or monergism. Monergism is something that operates by itself or works alone as the sole active party. Monergism is the opposite of synergism. Synergism shares a common root with monergism, but it has a different prefix. The prefix syn comes from a Greek word meaning “with.” Synergism is a cooperative venture, a working together of two or more parties. When the term monergism is linked with the word regeneration, the phrase describes an action by which God the Holy Spirit works on a human being without this person’s assistance or cooperation. This grace of regeneration may be called operative grace. Cooperative grace, on the other hand, is grace that God offers to sinners and that they may accept or reject, depending on the sinner’s disposition. Monergistic regeneration is exclusively a divine act. Man does not have the creative power God has. To quicken a person who is spiritually dead is something only God can do. A corpse cannot revive itself. It cannot even assist in the effort. It can only respond after receiving new life. Not only can it respond then, it most certainly will respond. In regeneration the soul of man is utterly passive until it has been made alive. It offers no help in reviving itself, though once revived it is empowered to act and respond. Here we reach the ultimate point of separation between semi-Pelagianism and Augustinianism, between Arminianism and Calvinism, between Rome and the Reformation. Here we discover whether we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation or if, while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny. Arminianism reverses the order of salvation. It has faith preceding regeneration. The sinner, who is dead in sin and in bondage to sin, must somehow shed his chains, revive his spiritual vitality, and exercise faith so that he or she may be born again. In a very real sense regeneration is not so much a gift in this schema as it is a reward for responding to the offer of grace. The Arminian argues that in this universal prevenient grace is primary, in that God first offers grace for regeneration. God takes the initiative. He makes the first move and takes the first step. But this step is not decisive. This step may be thwarted by the sinner. If the sinner refuses to cooperate with or assent to this proffered grace, then grace is to no avail." -- [excerpts from R. C. Sproul - "What is Reformed?" Theology?]Monergism v. Synergism by R. C. Sproul
It's the weekend. Spend some time reading from MONERGISM.COM. It's time well-spent.
Of course it is. Even without the Scriptures no man is without excuse because the world and all of life attest to the sovereignty of the Triune Creator of heaven and earth.
The fact remains, however, that God does not give all men eyes to see or ears to hear or a new heart with which to believe. If He did, all men would believe and be saved. And obviously, they're not.
All men do what they want to do. The natural man has not been given the ability to know the things of God, and therefore he willingly refuses to believe, according to his fallen and corrupted nature. Those whose minds have been renewed by the Holy Spirit, according to the will and purpose of God, will understand and believe the truth of the risen Christ.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." -- John 10:25-28"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
I wouldn't call the understanding that salvation is an unearned, free, merciful gift of God to whom He will, and not something we achieve for ourselves, with or without help, "minutia."
I understand it (Calvinism) far better than most.
I'm sorry. You've said that many times, but it is demonstrably not true.
God to save him, or of opening the way to God to save him. No question of anything but "I am a sinner, and all my hope is in God, my Saviour!" This is Calvinism, not just something like Calvinism, or an approach to Calvinism, but Calvinism in its vital manifestation. Wherever this attitude of heart is found and is given expression in direct and unambiguous terms, there is Calvinism. Where this attitude of mind and heart is fallen away from it however small a measure, there Calvinism has become impossible. " "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. He has caught sight of the ineffable Vision, and he will not let it fade for a moment from his eyes - God in nature, God in history, God in grace. Everywhere he sees God in His mighty stepping, everywhere he feels the working of His mighty arm, the throbbing of His mighty heart....Calvinism is just Christianity. The super-naturalism for which Calvinism stands is the very breath of the nostrils of Christianity; without it Christianity cannot exist...Calvinism thus emerges to our sight as nothing more or less than the hope of the world." ~Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield"Calvinism is evangelism in its pure and only stable expression, and when we say evangelism we say sin and salvation. It means utter dependence on God for salvation. It implies therefore, need of salvation and a profound sense of this need, along with an equally profound sense of helplessness in the presence of this need, and utter dependence on God for its satisfaction. Its type is found in the publican who smote his breast and cried, "God be merciful to me a sinner!" No question there of saving himself, or helping
Scrub, scrub, scrub.
Rub-a-dub-scrub.
I agree with Warfield. I do not agree with many Calvinists. Your quote of Warfield makes no mention of double predestination. Either he does not believe it or he doesn’t want to admit it. Which is it; or is there some other quote you might want to present?
Also, Warfield is talking about evangelism and there is no reason to refer to it as Calvinism. He could say that Calvinists believe in evangelism, but to say that Calvinism is equal to evangelism is a bit arrogant. I know a lot more non-Calvinists who put much more effort and money into evangelism than I do Calvinists.
You do not know if that is true. That is a conclusion based on your persal biases.
If He did, all men would believe and be saved. And obviously, they're not.
Does man not have the ability to choose to believe or not believe? Ever hear of free will?
I don’t know why you pinged me to discuss the Inquisition, I’m Anglican and my family have been in danger from both sides, although the most recent was Cromwell. I never mentioned Calvin by name; I only questioned how those who are not Calvinist might be treated if Calvinists ever became the majority.
I repeat I do not want to live in ANY country that tells me how or where I must worship.
True worship can not be compelled.
“”Is Salvation available to all mankind?””
If any man repents of his sin and trusts in Christ, he is saved. ANY man. So I think it is fair and true to say yes, it is.
This does not deny the election and predestination taught in Scripture.
“You never heard of his involvement in the murder of Servitus? “
I have heard conflicting accounts about the death of Servitus. I do not hold a fast position on it. I don’t think we have enough information to condemn or clear Calvin on it, honestly. It was apparently done in a lawful manner, but whether those laws were just is another question. While no excuse, the fact is that death for heresy was commonplace at the time. Calvin made have been murderous, or he have made a sinful error, or he may have actually been correct.
I don’t think murderous is quite fair, though, because a murderous person tends to murder frequently. No one has charged Calvin with this. So I think he either made a dreadful, sinful error, or a difficult but correct decision. I am not certain.
“I cannot judge the state of his salvation.”
Well, ultimately, we don’t know any man’s heart. But he did frequently and effusively profess Christ and was a pastor for many years. I doubt he kept up a wearying pretense all that time.
I commend you for acknowledging that Calvin could very well have been a murderer. Not many Calvinists would accept that very real possibility; and to be fair, one must also acknowledge that David was a murderer as well. David obviously confessed his sin of murder. Not nearly as confident that Calvin did the same.
Actually one group took the predestination idea to this point. The Anabaptists believed that debauchery of all sorts was fine, since if you were going to heaven or hell it wouldn’t be affected by your behavior. At least that is what the Calvinists, the Lutherans and the Catholics said, before they killed them all in one splendid Kumbaya moment.
Indeed, Terabitten, doc1019 does not grasp the essence of Calvinism. Rather, he has grasped the essence of the Libertine, IIRC. Or, perhaps, something of a pre-Matrix Keannu budget flick with George Carlin.
Unfortunately, for the non-Calvinist, the party ticket has also been written. For if the future is known by God, even if it has not been declared by God, then that future is still fixed and certain. It simply denies a loving God to be in charge of it. And this is why people are abandoning even non-Calvinist Christian philosophies for Open Theism and “The God of the Possible.”
... is not equivalent to saying that the large proportion of the human race are or will be Calvinist.
Of course Calvinists and Hindus are both fatalists so I guess you can count all of the Indians in the Calvinist column ... sorta.
I would expect all Christians to know the difference between fatalism and God's ordination of all things.
This is a sad state of mind that people fall into sometimes, in which they do not know the difference between God and Fate...
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