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Ben Stein Blows it on Fox--ID is Religion (vanity)
Fox News | 04/20/2008 | Soliton

Posted on 04/20/2008 6:09:13 PM PDT by Soliton

Ben Stein was just on Fox News with Geraldo. He was asked If ID versus Evolution was a "left, right thing". He responded,"No, It's an atheist versus a non-believer thing". Stein inadvertantly admitted that ID is a religious argument, not science!


TOPICS: Education; Government; Religion; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: benstein; evolution; expelled
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To: Soliton

——The passage you quote is Darwin’s rejection of eugenics. Is it your understanding that it means the opposite?——

Quite the contrary. Hitler however, had no such moral compunction. Darwin was a brilliant scientist with a well defined moral compass. Hitler was a personification of evil and in my opinion grasped at whatever tools he could find to justify his racism, and used whatever other tools he could to promote it.


321 posted on 04/21/2008 8:42:18 PM PDT by ResponseAbility
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To: processing please hold
Do you mean evolution? Having to do with humans?

Yes. You see, if you consider large organisms as being the points in your space, you cannot really say that past states are independent of future states--very obviously! But those are not the points which have trajectories (change state with time) because organisms do not "evolve" into other organisms.

Are you saying it isn't an arbitrary one dimensional classical system?

Much more general.

Amy Noether made a famous proof that every conservation law is mathematically equivalent to some type of symmetry. For example, one of the famous laws of physics is the law of the conservation of angular momentum. In classical physics this is seen in the absence of external torque. In quantum mechanics the concept of angular momentum is much more difficult. For one thing, there is no such thing as "torque," and a quantum system doesn't actually have a well defined angular momentum unless it's in one of the stationary states (or eigenstates) of the angular momentum. But, interestingly, in both classical physics and quantum mechanics, the same symmetry principle applies: systems with conserved angular momentum have rotational symmetry (think of the earth spinning on its axis, for example.) And this symmetry extends to the intrinsic angular momentum of quantum particles, which does not even exist in classical physics.

Similarly with energy, the time translation invariance of systems with conserved energy is seen in both quantum systems and classical systems. So... the short answer to your question is time translation invariance is a symmetry property of systems with constant (conserved) energy. It is both classical and quantum mechanical, and it happens in whatever dimensionality would apply. It even applies when we require space and time to no longer be independent dimensions, as happens in relativistic quantum mechanics.

I understand that but that box is in an even larger box, the infinite universe.

That's correct, but people who want to invoke the 2nd law of thermodynamics against evolution want to "draw the box" around only a small portion of the universe, so they can claim the second law is violated. If you draw the box around the whole universe, and count up all the entropy changes involved in evolution, the number is > 0 as required.

I consider my God to be the one in The King James Bible.

OK, but that still doesn't narrow it down enough. For Methodists, I believe, there is no compulsion to believe or disbelieve evolution. For Presbyterians and Anglicans (including Episcopalians) my understanding is that these denominations accept evolution as a possibility that is not inconsistent with Scripture. I believe (but might be mistaken) Lutherans do not accept it, and the Church of Christ definitely does not accept it. And so on and so on. Within Protestant denominations there is a very broad range of opinion about evolution. In denominations which accept it there is necessarily some kind of theistic or directed evolution. This is consistent with ID, but it is not consistent with Young Earth Creationism. This is also the position of Christians who do not read the King James Bible, by the way.

322 posted on 04/21/2008 8:47:24 PM PDT by FredZarguna (PA's newest and shortest-term DemocRAT. (Mar 24, 2008 4:55PM-April 23, 2008 8:05AM))
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To: Dog Gone

Here is a link to another more detailed and highly technical article about Radioactive halos - it’s a technical paper by creation scientist Dr. Andrew Snelling. I haven’t read it but it appears to give more details about where radio halos have been found. From the little I read he seems to believe that the halos are the result of contamination which would contradict the argument that I made earlier. So, this just goes to show that there are actually a lot more debates within Creationist circles about how to interpret the scientiffic evidence than people might expect. So, in all fairness I figured that I had better send you a link to his article which I am going to read completely when I have the time since this is an argument that I have relied on frequently in the past. Here is the link http://www.globalflood.org/papers/2003ICCradiohalo.html


323 posted on 04/21/2008 8:48:50 PM PDT by dschapin
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To: Soliton

Amazing how you can change the context of the question simply by changing the case of one letter. Imagine the fundamentals of science getting turned on its head through new discovery as incidental as shifting the case of one letter. Such is the evolution of science.

Whether through Faith or faith, most exist in the comfort of beliefs that do not fail them. That doesn’t mean, however, their beliefs are true. As such, a true scientist in his journey should forever be the skeptic of his own beliefs and keep an open mind to the Faith and faith of others.


324 posted on 04/21/2008 8:49:57 PM PDT by Gene Eric
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To: Texas Songwriter

That was a very indepth reply with some information that I will research.

I have a question about the people of Germany at the time of Hitlers rise. While Hitler did use neo-Christianity to promote his ideals to the German populace, his up close and core supporters were very much steeped in the occult along with him. How prevalent do you believe this was in Germany at that time?


325 posted on 04/21/2008 9:00:31 PM PDT by ResponseAbility
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To: Fichori

Not really. I was wondering what kind of physical conditions (temperature and pressure) it takes to produce that kind of result, and how well a man in a wooden boat would survive those same conditions.


326 posted on 04/21/2008 9:01:08 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Gene Eric
Amazing how you can change the context of the question simply by changing the case of one letter.

All the more amazing because it was a typo.

327 posted on 04/21/2008 9:05:57 PM PDT by Soliton (McCain couldn't even win a McCain look-alike contest)
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To: ResponseAbility

I am not an expert in this area. However, there seemed to be willful compliance, if not acceptance of these belief system. I do not think the German people suddenly were ordered to deny the fundamental of Christianity, but I do believe the social mileau was such that they were not (as a people) well schooled in Biblical truth. They were susceptible to these notions toward self idolotry, especially the youth. Nietzchea, Darwin, and Malthus laid the groundwork along with the Eugenics crowd and the desenstization to killing the aged, infirmed, mentally and physically retarded were all social events which the victims were, if they were able, to be grateful for. We may be approaching such in our own country from a side door, if we are not careful


328 posted on 04/21/2008 9:40:58 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter (I)
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To: tacticalogic
"Not really. I was wondering what kind of physical conditions (temperature and pressure) it takes to produce that kind of result, and how well a man in a wooden boat would survive those same conditions."

If you ever decide you want to read about those subjects from a creationist perspective, aig has an abundance of such articles.
(Their search engine is a quick way to find stuff)


Also, from my previous post, one of their source links: Analysis of the Main Principles of Stratigraphy on the Basis of Experimental Data

I have not extensively read it, but if you click on 'experiments' on the left, it takes you to a bunch of related experiments.
329 posted on 04/21/2008 9:41:38 PM PDT by Fichori (Truth is non-negotiable.)
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To: Soliton

That was a Scriptural reference. I suppose I shouldn’t have used it. It proved too distracting for you.

Please replace that sentence with “Most people believe that.” Feel free to comment....


330 posted on 04/21/2008 9:47:11 PM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: ResponseAbility

Darwin was a brilliant scientist with a well defined moral compass.

Please describe the origin of that moral compass.

331 posted on 04/21/2008 9:48:28 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter (I)
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To: Soliton

>> All the more amazing because it was a typo.

LOL


332 posted on 04/21/2008 9:53:09 PM PDT by Gene Eric
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To: Texas Songwriter

——Please describe the origin of that moral compass——

I’m sure the preachers at his boyhood Anglican Church helped inform him of Jesus’s many admonitions to love thy neighbor as thyself.


333 posted on 04/21/2008 10:00:06 PM PDT by ResponseAbility
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To: Soliton

My friend just got back from seeing the movie — he said it was great and highly encouraged everyone to see it!

-Jesse


334 posted on 04/21/2008 10:36:56 PM PDT by mrjesse (Could it be true? Imagine, being forgiven, and having a cause, greater then yourself, to live for!)
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To: Texas Songwriter

——Nietzchea, Darwin, and Malthus——

These writers along with Hegel seemed to coalesce the unchurched and the marginals into a unit devoid of the love for God and neighbor that had been the underpinning of society that Darwin mentioned in his passage against eugenics. A Hitlerian figure did not arise before him because there was not the abject rejection of Jesus Philosophy of love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbor within the timeframe of hundreds of years prior to Hitler.

There were however many wars that devastated major populations throughout the middle ages of the church, that were based primarily on doctrinal differences and also showed a fundamental lack of understanding of Jesus admonition to love the Lord and love thy neighbor as thyself.

I see the basic mechanics of how such deep divisions develop displayed so effortlessly on the internet incessantly. Academia may become more entrenched over Ben Steins movie as another poster said, and love will not have grown but diminished.

I think an in depth look at how Germany’s population came to embrace Hitler’s Nazi outlook could help shine some light if it paid attention to the reading habits, and writings in the papers of the people he was courting.


335 posted on 04/21/2008 10:57:14 PM PDT by ResponseAbility
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To: ResponseAbility; All

——I think an in depth look at how Germany’s population came to embrace Hitler’s Nazi outlook could help shine some light if it paid attention to the reading habits, and writings in the papers of the people he was courting.——

What do y’all suggest as to good references into pre-Hitler Germany?


336 posted on 04/21/2008 11:15:31 PM PDT by ResponseAbility
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To: Texas Songwriter
I do not think the German people suddenly were ordered to deny the fundamental of Christianity, but I do believe the social mileau was such that they were not (as a people) well schooled in Biblical truth.

Wasn't anti-semitism a feature of both the Catholic and early Protestant churches? For example, the Tridentine Mass was in use from 1570 - 1959. The prayer stated:

"Oremus et pro perfidies Judaeis" (Let us pray for the perfidious Jews).

--Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1862758/posts

Other examples are the writings of Martin Luther in "The Jews and Their Lies" (1543):

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? ... I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians.

--http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

_________________________

Nietzchea, Darwin, and Malthus laid the groundwork along with the Eugenics crowd and the desenstization to killing the aged, infirmed, mentally and physically retarded were all social events which the victims were, if they were able, to be grateful for.

Is it your understanding of human history that such acts, along with genocide, were not practiced prior to Darwin?

337 posted on 04/21/2008 11:26:32 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Ken H
Link to Tridentine Mass in above post should have been to post #7
338 posted on 04/21/2008 11:32:23 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Soliton

>>Faith is excepting as true something that can not be proved.<<

Do you claim that everything you believe can be proved? I believe that I am self-aware, that murder is wrong, and that I love my wife. You can either accept those beliefs as true, false, or say you don’t know, but I cannot prove it.

You either accept “We hold these truths to be self evident...” or you don’t.


339 posted on 04/21/2008 11:39:06 PM PDT by ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas (I want to "Buy American" but the only things for sale made in the USA are politicians)
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To: Ken H
Murder is as old as Cain.

Unfortunately, antisemitism has been present since Moses, however it is not at Gods order.

The false notion that the Jews killed Jesus is probably the origin of the history of the Christians antipathy toward the Jew, but it was never at the command of God. Augustine through to Calvin and farther have blood on their hand, and not only Jewish, but that of people who had a different understanding of Biblical Truth. That cannot be papered over. However, in terms of shear volumn, Hitler is only eclipsed by Stallin and Mao.

340 posted on 04/21/2008 11:44:44 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter (I)
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