I'm a liberal and I'm here to learn

I was a regular contributor to the Kerry Online Forum and am now a regular contributor to the Common Ground Common Sense forum. I am a liberal, but I'll be the first to admit, I don't have all the answers. In fact, many of hte questions that matter to me probably matter to you too. I'm concerned with questions about how to tame power, whether governmental or corporate. I'm concern with the rule of law and how we can get the powerful to take it seriously. I'm concerned with the erosion of civil liberties. And yes, I am concerned about some things you may associate with liberalism--social safety nets and taking care of those who fall through the institutional cracks.

I'm here because I think agreement is overrated and that critics can be your best friends: they keep you from getting sloppy or careless. At any rate, I think there are things I can learn from you. I don't expect you are all agreed on anything--I expect there is a lot of diversity of opinion here. If you are interested in what I have said over at Common Ground Common Sense, I'm using the same handle both places, and you should feel free to come over and look around.

Yeah, when Bev Harris - noted Democrat partisan and opponent of unaccountable electronic voting systems - uncovered far more Democrat than Republican voter fraud in a close examination of Florida and reported it truthfully and without partisan bias, the DU pirhanas went after her. Loyalty? Truth? What's that?

It wasn't the DUjers who turned on DU, it was Bev Harris herself.

Actually here's the story as posted by EarlG EarlG ADMIN Donating member (1000+ posts) Fri Dec-03-04 02:31 PM

Original message

Statement on the Bev Harris situation

Over the past two years Bev Harris has received a great deal of support from the members of Democratic Underground, in her research, publicity efforts, and fundraising. In return we have played host to an 18 month-long squabble between Ms. Harris and other verified voting activists, and have even been threatened with lawuits by Ms. Harris herself. Despite this, we have publicly remained mostly silent on the verified voting squabbles.

We believe verified voting is a topic of crucial importance, and have been uncomfortable taking sides on an issue which, frankly, we should all be on the same side of anyway. Therefore we have kept most of our correspondence with the various factions private and attempted to cool things down behind the scenes. Like all issues discussed at DU, we have tried to focus the discussion of verified voting on the topic at hand, and not on the personalities of the participants. However, in light of the recent troubles, we feel compelled to make a statement.

In 2003 Bev Harris, along with a few other verified voting activists, were banned from DU for engaging in personal squabbles on the message board after they were repeatedly instructed to stop. Around that time, Ms. Harris threatened us with a libel lawsuit, claiming that we could be held responsible for comments made by other message board members who doubted the credibility of her project. She never followed through on this threat and we never heard from her lawyers.

Ms. Harris was reinstated shortly afterwards, after agreeing to put an end to the problems that got her banned in the first place. Nonetheless, those problems periodically recurred after her reinstatement. A few weeks ago, Ms. Harris again used our website to threaten DU with lawsuits, in her postings, in private messages to other members, and in rude alerts she sent to the moderators.

We sent a message to Ms. Harris telling her to stop hassling our moderators and members, and informing her that if she had a legal concern, she needed to contact us directly. We also let her know that her continued participation on this message board was dependent upon her behavior. The legal threats stopped, but we received no response from either Ms. Harris or her lawyers.

This is our personal experience with Ms. Harris. We cannot confirm or deny the veracity of claims made by others, including many former colleagues, her former publisher, and Keith Olbermann. But we can confirm that the claims made by others about Ms. Harris are not inconsistent with our own experiences.

We have remained as patient as possible in our dealings with Ms. Harris because we believe that the topic of verified voting is a crucial one. We were prepared to sacrifice a certain amount of tranquility on the message board if verified voting was being discussed in a generally positive manner.

Ms. Harris's recent spat with Keith Olbermann has made positive discussion of verified voting increasingly difficult on DU. For over a year and a half, our members have been split into pro- and anti-Bev factions, and recent events have only exacerbated that division. Yet this morning Ms. Harris returned to DU and started posting as if nothing had happened, while making liberal use of the alert button to complain to the moderators about our enforcement of the message board rules. At this point our patience finally ran out.

The fact that the disruptions have continued, despite repeated warnings from the administrators, leaves us with no other option but to bar Bev Harris from posting on this website. We no longer believe that it is productive to allow her to use DU as a platform to promote herself while simultaneously trashing us, our moderators, and others who have been previously supportive of her cause.

We still remain firmly committed to promoting discussion of verified voting, and we wish Ms. Harris well in her efforts to shed light on this important issue. From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved.

-----------------

This thread will remain open until further notice. Again, we would like to remind everyone to take care to avoid personal attacks. Thank you for your continued cooperation. Actually, this thread header was copied/posted where I saved it to my computer. I've looked and can't locate it now on DU which isn't to stay it's not still there, I just can't find it.

"...the most important political lesson I have ever learned since before Harry Truman was learned here, on FR, after many days of spirited discussion. The subject was hate crimes and I had the liberal reflex belief that hate could be classified as a terrible thing that must not be permitted. After many patient and convincing arguments from the serious conservatives and libertarians it finally dawned on me that criminalizing what a person thinks is just plain wrong."

Very good example...sorta like those lowlifes down in Texas who dragged that ol' black man to his death and were sentenced to death, then the dead man's daughter cut a commercial against Dubyuh saying it was like her daddy was killed again when Bush didn't sign the Hate Crimes legislation. What'd she want...to kill 'em twice?!

"Not many of my liberal friends will admit in public that they are wrong on this issue, but in the long run the conservative view on this subject will prevail..."

I rarely get my liberal friends to admit publicly that they were mistaken on this issue or that, but eventually I see evidence of progress as long as we keep the arguments civil. Sometimes it just ain't possible, and for those folks, we simply refuse to discuss politics or else they drift outta my life. Reckon that's the same way it oughtta be on FR.com...it's a big Forum and we needn't get along with everyone who ventures here. But that doesn't mean I want every one of them ZOTTED...LOL!!

"...FR can be a place where we can hear a different point of view, and as long as we don't deliberately seek to start a ruckus (anymore than a mature adult does in a strange bar) we can eventually make some sense of the other point of view...and when we buy a round we can choose to let the spoil sports taste the gloat."

Zackley...MUD

Murray Mom almost never posts here any more, but I think that she's kept around as a "pet",so that the rest of us can beat her to a bloody pulp.

No,I don't think that any Conservative here can be converted to the DARK SIDE.But,Jim set FR up for Conservatives And Conservatives ONLY,so that we could debate,argue,and discuss amongst ourselves.There are plenty of places,on and off the net,where we can debate Liberals.

I'm not "afraid" of Liberals at all;not even debating RED DIAPER BABIES and card carrying,stinking Commies. I've done that for more decades than you can shake a stick at and won.

OTOH,the poster of this thread wants US to go to his web site and wants US to have an "open mind" about his opinions.That isn't what FR is all about and NOT something that will make FR better.And most of us know exactly what Liberals believe,how the "debate",and don't need any education is these matters at all.

And BTW...the poster of this thread has hardly replied to it at all.If he were REALLY sincere,he wouldn't have disappeared.He didn't want a "dialog" at all...he wanted hits on his web site.

"...the poster of this thread wants US to go to his web site and wants US to have an "open mind" about his opinions."

Well, I sincerely doubt many FReepers went and checked out his website, and it's impossible fer me to have an "open mind" about his liberal opinions, 'cuz I've had 'em crammed down my throat fer years of being subjected to the Vast, LeftWing Medyuh Whore'd!!

"That isn't what FR is all about and NOT something that will make FR better. And most of us know exactly what Liberals believe, how the "debate", and don't need any education is these matters at all."

Agreed, and I don't foresee a huge flood of Lefties itching to join our site; however, if a few straggle in our doors and follow the house rules, I guess I just don't see the harm in leting the polite ones hang out so we can take a few whacks at 'em!!

"...the poster of this thread has hardly replied to it at all. If he were REALLY sincere, he wouldn't have disappeared. He didn't want a "dialog" at all...he wanted hits on his web site."

I sorta got that impression, too...oh well. Have a good evening, I think I'm gonna call it a night.

FReegards...MUD

"When the LeftWing Breaks!!"
(To be sung to Led Zeppelin's "When the Levee Breaks...")

If it keeps on rainin', LeftWing's gonna break...
If Left keeps on whinin', LeftWing's gonna break!!
An' when the LeftWing breaks, RATS have no place to stay!!

Effete Ol' Lib'rals taught US to weep an' moan...yeh...
Elite Ol' Lefties taught US to weep an' moan...
Bush's got what it takes to make a long-time RAT change his vote!!
-ah~oh well, ah~oh well, ah~oh well-ah ooh-ooh.

RATS, don't it make ya feel bad when yer tryin'a find a Hero?!!
All DemRATS have sunken so low!!!!
If yer comin' down South, we got no use fer you...
Best keep gettin' it on to Ol' Castro.
Ahhh~eah, ahhh~eah, ahhh~eah hey hey.

Cryin' won't help ya, prayin' won't do ya no good, no...
Slick...cryin' won't help ya, prayin' won't do you no good!!
'Cuz when Slick's stonewall breaks, Bubba'll git Dem BareArsedBlues!! ah~ooh-hooh.

All last night, I FReeped all DemLefties...Left's Stoned-ahh,
Yep, that's Right, I sat on the levee an' crooned!!
A-thinkin' 'bout McAuliffe and Slick Willie's cellmates ahh-hah.

Ohh-oh-oh, ohh-oh-oh, ohh-oh-oh, hahhh.
Ahh-ah-ah, ahh-ah-ah, ahh-ah-ah, ahhh.
Hey! Oh!

We're rollin'...
We're rollin' to DeeCeeTown.
We're rollin' to DeeCeeTown.
Sorry, but I can't take you~ahhh.
Goin' down, we're goin' down now.
Goin' down, we're goin' down now.
I'm goin' down, I'm goin' down,
I'm goin' down, I'm goin' do__wn.

Ahhh~oooh~ohh.
Slick's goin' down, Slick's goin' down now.
Left's goin' down, Left's goin' down now.
I'm goin' down, I'm goin' down now.
I'm goin' down, I'm goin' down-down-down-down-down
~oooh~ooh~ooh~ooh ooh~ooh~ooh.

Mudboy Slim (10/17/2002)

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.