Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

[Utah Girl]

Just thought I would start a new thread.

[varina davis]

They were looking for Elizabeth, not for the perpetrator, and they probably weren't at all sure that it wasn't some sort of sneaking out situation. Most of them probably didn't hear a lot of details before they ran out searching. If Elizabeth had been kidnapped to be raped, she would quite likely have still been around -- rape victims are often grabbed, taken to the nearest secluded spot, raped, and left there. Charlotte Hansen would still have been lying in her backyard 3-4 hours later, if someone hadn't heard her cries for help sooner

I have to disagree -- if it is indeed true that Ed Smart reported a possible kidnapping with weapon to the LE right away. Do you really think 40 to 50 neighbors would run out in the middle of the night to just look for a kid who "sneaked out" for a while?

There is no way to compare Liz's disappearance with the Hansen rape. A vastly different home scenario. If that was the M.O., it would have been far easier for a perpetrator to grab her while she was jogging, or after school, or a multitude of much easier venues.

[GovernmentShrinker]

3-4 hours after the fact, the armed gunman and his hostage could have been anywhere in the city or several surrounding counties. Were police supposed to issue an emergency order for everyone in a 150 mile radius to stay inside? Realistically, it would have been almost inconceivable that the kidnapper would still have been in the neighborhood, (unless it turned out to be sneaking out episode), but very conceivable that Elizabeth would still be there. Can you imagine if police made the searchers go home, and then found Elizabeth just a little too late?

[varina davis]

Also, she went because she thought she could trust the person she accompanied out of the house.

[GovernmentShrinker]

The neighbors would run out to help look without knowing all the details, and hoping it was a sneaking out situation, but fearful it was a kidnapping/rape/murder.

And it doesn't appear that the perpetrator had much difficulty getting Elizabeth out of her home in the middle of the night. I'm not sure what you're implying is the big difference between the two cases -- the Hansen case was a family acquaintance bent on a vicious, apparently partly sexual, assault, who took the child from her bedroom in the middle of the night; there is reason to believe that the Smart case involved a family acquaintance, the perp definitely took the girl from her bedroom in the middle of the night, and we still don't know for what purpose.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Bedtime. 'Night all.

ZZZZzzzzzzz...

GS

[Jolly Green]

How would you explain the police allowing people to continue to roam about when there were reports of an armed gunman?

You are assuming that 40 police officers converged on the sceen 12 minutes after the call and were in a position to cordon off the entire area and take full control of the neighborhood. Reality is quite different. A single officer arrived first. A second officer arrived shortly thereafter. They may very well have been the only officers on the scene for an hour or more. Having driven around the neighborhood, I can assure you that it would not have been possible for a small number of officers to control all the people in the neighborhood all the while looking for ES.

[anatolfz]

It is true - in many Mormon homes. Unnecessary, external influences i.e. TV, phones, internet, are controlled and/or avoided whenever practical.

Apparently that didn't apply to computers. Seemed to be plenty of those among Smart family members. The total number LE took was 13, as I recall.

You are actually reading the posts before replying, right? Because there have been quite a few good ones to mull over in the last bit of time, and they answer some of these troublesome questions.

"Controlled and/or avoided whenever practical", so the computers were necessary, or thought to be, while an internal telephone system was not. The teachers at my local high school pretty much demand essays be done in MS Word.

[Jolly Green]

This makes no sense ! The only answer has to be that the police knew there was no gunman, so the neighbors were not at risk of being shot, and Elizabeth was not at risk.

You are propagating a myth. Why would the police say there was a gun if there was not? What possible motive would LE have for that particular deception? Why are you assuming that all 40-50 neighbors knew there was a gun?

[Jolly Green]

You don't know that! I counted Ricci out from the beginning. Time line. Yes, he is a scum.....TIME LINE.

Your time line theory was bogus then and it's still bogus. Ricci could have easily driven to Price, where he used to hunt (where there is lots of gray mud and pine trees), stashed a body and returned in 3 hours and 30 minutes flat.

[varina davis]

"Controlled and/or avoided whenever practical", so the computers were necessary, or thought to be, while an internal telephone system was not.

I believe the reports referred to both business and personal computers.

[varina davis]

Why would the police say there was a gun if there was not?

How could the LE possibly know for certain if there was a gun or not?

[varina davis]

Your time line theory was bogus then and it's still bogus. Ricci could have easily driven to Price, where he used to hunt (where there is lots of gray mud and pine trees), stashed a body and returned in 3 hours and 30 minutes flat.

One big word missing here, JG, WHY?

[FR_addict]

Utah Law:
76-5-302. Aggravated kidnapping.

(1) An actor commits aggravated kidnapping if the actor, in the course of committing unlawful detention or kidnapping:
(a) possesses, uses, or threatens to use a dangerous weapon as defined in Section 76-1-601; or
(b) acts with intent:
...
(iv) to inflict bodily injury on or to terrorize the victim or another;
......
(3) Aggravated kidnapping is a first degree felony punishable by imprisonment for an indeterminate term of not less than 6, 10, or 15 years and which may be for life. Imprisonment is mandatory in accordance with Section 76-3-406.


76-5-202. Aggravated murder.

(1) Criminal homicide constitutes aggravated murder if the actor intentionally or knowingly causes the death of another under any of the following circumstances:
...
aggravated arson, arson, aggravated burglary, burglary, aggravated kidnapping, kidnapping, or child kidnapping;
...
(2) Aggravated murder is a capital felony.
...

[Jolly Green]

It looks more and more like the "big search" was a big CYA.

Only to you.

[lakey]

When was there time to have "fun" with her....wasn't that the idea, Ricci was a late blooming sex pervert?

[Jolly Green]

Apparently that didn't apply to computers. Seemed to be plenty of those among Smart family members. The total number LE took was 13, as I recall.

I did say "controlled".

[anatolfz]

Why would the police say there was a gun if there was not?

How could the LE possibly know for certain if there was a gun or not?

The previous post is not asserting that the police knew anything of the kind; it is asking why they would make up this detail.

[varina davis]

The previous post is not asserting that the police knew anything of the kind;

Yes it is.... or it wouldn't have asked the following question.... it is asking why they would make up this detail.

[anatolfz]

I think it means: they said there was a gun because that's what they had been told; of course they couldn't have known for sure, not having been present at the time; yet why should they lie about having been told there was a gun?

[varina davis]

I think it means: they said there was a gun because that's what they had been told; of course they couldn't have known for sure, not having been present at the time; yet why should they lie about having been told there was a gun?

Of course, had JG stated it in this fashion, there would have been no argument.