Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

[Utah Girl]

Just thought I would start a new thread.

[GovernmentShrinker]

It may have been more along the lines of reassurance that there would no punitive consequences from the Church, if anything unsavory about any family members came to light in connection with the investigation. An extramarital affair, or homosexual activity, or anything of that sort can be grounds for excommunication, and members of a prominent Mormon family really would worry about that in a situation like this. It would make perfect sense for Church leaders to advise the parents that "the only thing that matters is finding Elizabeth, don't worry about anything else, all will be forgiven".

[Devil_Anse]

What's the penalty for kidnapping, as opposed to murder?

Are you kidding? You know you can get the death penalty for murder--but not for kidnapping, to my knowledge. I don't know the Utah statutes, but you can guarantee a sentence for murder would be much worse than one for kidnapping. Not to mention that, believe it or not, some cons are actually concerned about their "image" and would rather be "known" for a less heartless crime.

[freedox]

"The alternative is to seriously delay a thorough search of the area. Not such a tough call in my book."

So you think the police actively solicited the assistance of unarmed citizens to help them in their search for an armed gunman? Why do you think those "Wanted" posters at the post office always warn people NOT to attempt an apprehension, but to contact the police?

[GovernmentShrinker]

4:00 AM?!?!?! Yikes, am I ever glad I don't have your job!

[Neenah]

Also, early news reports said Ricci at first told police he'd been out with friends the night of June 4. Whatever happened to that? The reports also said that Ricci at first told police (when they questioned him the evening of June 5) that he'd gone to a drug clinic that morning. They checked, and in fact he hadn't been there at all.

Now I am assigning you home work. I think I have overread everything out there, but I guess I missed these two things. I never read of this, or heard it in interviews or press conferences. soooooo

Rack your brain and try to find the source please. I am sincerely interested in reading this. You say it was reported. This is the first time I ever heard that. I must be slipping. In fact, I don't remember anyone on this board talking about that, or a big deal would be made of it with all the posts about Ricci. Thanks.

[freedox]

Oh, NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Now she's handing out homework assignments!!! Run for your lives!!!!

[Jolly Green]

See the following:

Sister reported the abduction relatively quickly

[Neenah]

Who knows when the parents heard about the gun or the threat or the stopover in the bathroom or the fact that the voice sounded familiar?

I agree with most of your post, but we can't know that. Common sense tells us that a little 9 yr. old, who by description of family members on t.v. interviews and Jeanie Boylan, say she is a very mature, intelligent, gifted child, and I am sure she was traumatized if in fact E. was taken at gunpoint.I do, however, with that description, believe if that happened, she told her parents right then and there. But I have no way to state that as fact. Just my thought of how I hope it would have happened.

If I am not mistaken, the next day it was told that she was taken at gunpoint, and the threat of killing E. was there. Sometime that night, MK told her parents.

Or did she?

[lakey]

I don't remember anything about Ricci saying he reported to a drug clinic either, Neenah. That would be a stupid thing for him to lie about to the police.

[GovernmentShrinker]

If a desperate armed gunman was involved, there would have been life-or-death danger to any one of those 40-50 people who happened to stumble across him. (Remember Ricci and the police officer?)

Who says he was desperate? If he was in fact someone known to the family, especially if a teen or college age guy, he had a lot of options: give it up, claim Elizabeth had begged him to sneak out together because she needed to talk,let her go and run for it while everyone's attention was on her, hide and keep Elizabeth quiet with a gun to her head, etc. And if I was out in a wooded area in a suburban neighborhood, with a girl I'd just kidnapped, and heard the voices of 40-50 searchers in the immediate area, I sure wouldn't assume they were all unarmed. I'd have been packing my .357 Magnum if I'd been searching in a situation like that, and I'll bet a number of the searchers were well-armed. Heck, the police were probably happy to have the back-up.

[varina davis]

Heck, the police were probably happy to have the back-up.

Why would anyone possibly think that Liz and the alleged perpetrator would still be lolling around the neighborhood 2 to 3 hours after the deed was done? Makes no sense at all. It looks more and more like the "big search" was a big CYA.

[Neenah]

Thanks, Lakey. I sure want to read that. Not doubting her, but it seems odd to me that that was not discussed here. If I am wrong, someone speak up. I could have missed it.

[GovernmentShrinker]

They hardly had the opportunity to "actively solicit" them, when hordes of them were already searching when police arrived. And the "don't try to apprehend" warnings on wanted posters are aimed at total strangers who might try to apprehend someone who might or might not be the right person -- as much to protect the authorities from liability (to the innocent apprehendee and/or the well-meaning citizen who got shot). People searching their own neighborhood, in the immediate aftermath of a kidnapping -- i.e. mainly looking for the victim, not trying to apprehend the perp -- is a very different situation.

[Jolly Green]

Someone here said that wouldn't be common in an LDS household, but I'm not convinced that's true.

It is true - in many Mormon homes. Unnecessary, external influences i.e. TV, phones, internet, are controlled and/or avoided whenever practical.

I would think a phone would be an added safety measure in a house as large as the Smart's. No one in the know has mentioned it one way or another, but MK could have called the police if there had been a phone.

A 6000 sq. ft. home is large, but not huge.

[freedox]

"Who says he was desperate?"

Well, let me see.....we've been told that he issued threats of harm to MK/Elizabeth/the family (depending on which version you adhere to)......sounds pretty desperate to me. In any event, I still can't see the police allowing citizens to roam about with an armed gunman and his hostage on the loose. It just doesn't sound safe for anyone involved.

[GovernmentShrinker]

She was too terrified to tell her parents at all for 3 hours, and then all of a sudden she was perfectly coherent and recited all the facts clearly? I doubt it. According to police, it was perfectly normal that she was still remembering new details in 2nd and 3rd interviews with child forensic psychologists, days (maybe even a couple of weeks) after the event.

[varina davis]

It is true - in many Mormon homes. Unnecessary, external influences i.e. TV, phones, internet, are controlled and/or avoided whenever practical.

Apparently that didn't apply to computers. Seemed to be plenty of those among Smart family members. The total number LE took was 13, as I recall.

[Jolly Green]

I find it apalling that there was no repremand, if indeed what Dinse said was a fact. It almost sets it up in one's mind of incompetence of the PD.

Since well over 90% of such calls LE recieves are about juveniles who came home late, snuck out or run away, it isn't at all surprising that LE would not have initially considered the Smart home to be a crime scene.

Why is it that you can give the Riccis a pass, but not cut LE and inch of slack?

[GovernmentShrinker]

They were looking for Elizabeth, not for the perpetrator, and they probably weren't at all sure that it wasn't some sort of sneaking out situation. Most of them probably didn't hear a lot of details before they ran out searching. If Elizabeth had been kidnapped to be raped, she would quite likely have still been around -- rape victims are often grabbed, taken to the nearest secluded spot, raped, and left there. Charlotte Hansen would still have been lying in her backyard 3-4 hours later, if someone hadn't heard her cries for help sooner (and doctors expressed some amazement that she was able to make the cries she did, given the colossal trauma to her face, head, and mouth).

[Neenah]

well, yes...you know nothing. I know nothing. We have no facts on this, so it is pointless to make it an issue. All I said was that I was "HOPING" that she told them right away.

I also said.....If she did.