Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

[Utah Girl]

Just thought I would start a new thread.

[freedox]

Here's another one for your list........Suann Adams also seems to be the only person who has gone on record to deny police reports of neighbors being present at the Smart house prior to their arrival.

[Neenah]

if there was no gun in her back, how would one explain Elizabeth silently leaving with this man?

Ahhhhhh, maybe she knew the guy?

[Neenah]

Suann Adams also seems to be the only person who has gone on record to deny police reports of neighbors being present at the Smart house prior to their arrival

I was just thinking that!!!!! scary. I remember jumping off the couch when she said that!

[Devil_Anse]

Yes, there is a possibility that Elizabeth left voluntarily. If she did, it's possible:

-that the man wheedled and tricked her out of the house by leading her to believe it was just for a moment, or "just get me out the door, I'm afraid of tripping the alarm, and you know the code, don't you?" And, since this person was supposedly familiar (voicewise) to Mary K., no doubt he was also familiar to Elizabeth--less fear, more likelihood of trusting him.

-that the whole thing was prearranged, and it was a friend of Elizabeth's, teenaged or adult. I thought this for a while b/c I thought that when Elizabeth said, "are you kidnapping me," perhaps she was reminding the person of "his lines"--if the whole abduction thing was done for the benefit of fooling Mary K.

But if either of those scenarios happened, WHERE THE HELL IS SHE? Much as some, such as Varina, believe that she could be sheltered to this day by someone, I just don't see how her voluntary exit wouldn't have been figured out by someone. Also, if someone helped her get out of a bad situation, it would have to be someone who knew her--so it would be someone known to people around her. Why is no person from her area missing, or looking like they have a big secret?

[partialpressures]

"If a prosecutor sees that one of his witnesses has already made several contradictory statements, chances are he's going to see if he can get along without calling that person as a witness--and if the person doesn't testify, they won't be admitting his out-of-court statements as evidence. "

Okay, that all makes sense.

But first we need a body and second we need a suspect, or more important, a motive. I don't see either in the foreseeable future. Ricci's dead. Elizabeth is still missing.

Motive.

[freedox]

"I have thought about why the neighbors and friends appeared to have no fear that an armed kidnapper might still be in the house or lurking nearby. My answer to that is if you are told a kidnapper took a child, your brain just automatically assumes that the kidnapper and child are long gone. I would not have feared the gunman was still there had I been called to come to the Smart house to help."

As I responded to cookiedough earlier, I can understand a layperson thinking this way. However, police officers are trained to PROTECT. I still contend that if the responding police officers had had any inkling that an armed gunman might have been in the area, they would have immediately sent the goodhearted neighbors back into their homes.

[Devil_Anse]

I'm with you, on whether I would at least try to help a frantic neighbor whose child was missing. I could see people going around in groups--it might make them feel safer, anyway. I can also see people not wanting to be remembered as the one who retreated into their home and ignored the Smarts' plight. I mean, those who felt less like Rambo might at least have tried to show their concern by walking around in the lighted areas of the neighborhood!

There's also the matter of adenalin. Ordinary people are capable of all sorts of things when the adrenalin is flowing. So often we see people on the news who say, "I realize now that I did a risky thing...I must have been crazy, but I was excited...All I thought of was saving the person's life..."

[Neenah]

And, since this person was supposedly familiar (voicewise) to Mary K., no doubt he was also familiar to Elizabeth--less fear, more likelihood of trusting him.

Let's look at this......

Familiar with the voice (both girls)...

I believe they led a pretty sheltered life being that they were 9 and 14. They were active in their Ward functions (is that how to say it? ), and had a sizable family and extended family that they apparently were close to.

Functions they attended, because of their age were chaperoned by the parents, and Elizabeth did not date and was not interested in boys....

What voice, and person would that leave to be familiar with, so that if arroused in the night by this person, and talked to..she would quietly get up..get her shoes and leave?

What voice and person would be familiar with MK, so that she would not scream and wait 2-3 hours before saying anything to her parents? DID THE PERSON TELL HER THAT THE PARENTS SAID IT WAS OK ? (remember she is 9 )...

[Neenah]

Also, if someone helped her get out of a bad situation, it would have to be someone who knew her--so it would be someone known to people around her.

Yep

[Devil_Anse]

Did the PD know that night, exactly what happened to Elizabeth..?

They may have thought they knew. Lois Smart said they seemed too casual when they took the call. It's natural for police to think of a runaway situation, when they hear a teenager or adult is missing. I think that's why the Smarts went on and got the neighbors. I could see them not being able to stand still and wait patiently for police.

So often, when I would lose sight of a child in a crowd or a store, I would think of Adam Walsh, whose mother only went to another aisle of the store. When you feel that way, you want instant action, from somebody!

[freedox]

"WHERE THE HELL IS SHE? Why is no person from her area missing, or looking like they have a big secret?"

Excellent questions......those seem to be the stumpers!! Here's a thought.....and it is ONLY a thought, so bear with me. Remember the first sketch that the police released of the man with a missing tooth? Elizabeth had reportedly had some contact with this man at a "social function." That struck me as odd......the man looked rough, not in keeping with the type of people I would assume Elizabeth typically socialized with. Is it possible that Elizabeth had made the acquaintance of someone who was far outside her social circle? Someone who knew how to "get lost" and who would not be missed himself? Someone who the family would view as being a very real DANGER to their daughter's safety? Just a thought.....

[freedox]

How would you explain the police allowing people to continue to roam about when there were reports of an armed gunman?

[Neenah]

I can also see people not wanting to be remembered as the one who retreated into their home and ignored the Smarts' plight.

How long do you think it would take if you were in a panic state, after running to warn your neighbors of the kidnapping at gunpoint, to come back to your house, breathless, and pick up the phone and call 40 - 50 people? Or do they call one person, and that person calls the other person?

I would love to listen to the testemony of some of these 40 - 50 people about the phone call, and what was said. That is going to be interesting if it comes to trial.

[Devil_Anse]

"Someone who knew her"

But, see, Neenah, that doesn't let Ricci off the hook--and I now realize that you are not necessarily counting Ricci out. I'm not either. By all accounts, Ricci was a charming man. He could have become friends with Elizabeth. She could have trusted him. After all, her father trusted him, and I'm sure she saw that. I don't think her father would have said much, or anything, about his later suspicions that Ricci stole from them, in front of his children. I wouldn't let my children in on something like that, I wouldn't want them talking to their friends about it.

On the other hand, when you talk about prior posts I've made, one of my big theories was that Ricci was involved in some criminal enterprise (maybe methamphetamine lab, maybe an organized theft/burglary ring), working for/with some very dangerous people who might actually kill him if he told about it. This could be the real reason he wouldn't budge on telling what was done with the jeep. In fact, Scaredkat's post last night supports this idea.

[Devil_Anse]

I'm sure the police would have tried to rein them in, but I don't know how many police were there at any given moment. It's said they were too late to keep the people off the crime scene; if they couldn't even do that, maybe they didn't have enough manpower to curtail the activities of "40-50 people."

[Devil_Anse]

Have you seen Sue Ann Adams on TV? What does she look like? What else did she say?

[freedox]

LOL!!! I can see now why the police allegedly referred to the gathering that night as "the dinner party"!!!

[Neenah]

I think that's why the Smarts went on and got the neighbors. I could see them not being able to stand still and wait patiently for police.

If in fact the Smarts called the police and said..." THIS IS ED SMART ! OUR DAUGTER HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED BY GUNPOINT SEVERAL HOURS AGO!! OUR 9 YEAR OLD WAS TOLD NOT TO TELL, OR SHE WOULD BE KILLED...WE LIVE AT....."

The police would NOT be casual. The question here is.......What did they tell the police on that initial call?

What did they think 40=50 ward members could do?

[freedox]

Excellent point, Neenah. We are usually treated to endless media replays of the 911 calls made in cases like this......yet in this case, there has been nary a word.

[Neenah]

How would you explain the police allowing people to continue to roam about when there were reports of an armed gunman?

This makes no sense ! The only answer has to be that the police knew there was no gunman, so the neighbors were not at risk of being shot, and Elizabeth was not at risk.

If it was known by the police that there was a gun involved and a threat of killing if MK told...there is NO WAY the PD would allow people to free roam.

But then...I guess they were roaming about when the PD got there. Strange.