Update from Ukraine | Frontlines are Boiling Ukraine Advances on the South Ruzzia sends more forces

Youtube.com ^ | 11-18-2023 | Denys Davydov

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

Update from Ukraine | Frontlines are Boiling Ukraine Advances on the South Ruzzia sends more forces

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjElWt-iU2w

Offensive through the eyes of a soldier November 17, 2023 https://militaryland.net/news/invasion-day-630-summary/ Offensive through the eyes of a soldier Company commander of 47th Mechanized Brigade speaks about the unit and combat in the south.

Mykola Melnyk is an officer of Ukrainian Armed Forces, owner of Bohdan Khmelnytsky Order. In 2022, he joined 47th Mechanized Brigade (back then a battalion) and became company commander. He recently gave an interview to Ukrainian Front 18 channel, where he speaks about the brigade and the offensive in Zaporizhzhia Oblast.

[NOTE: two summaries per week, released on Wednesday and Sunday]

*** Great interactive maps with viewer controlled Map magnification tool to use for each Front!

https://militaryland.net/maps/

[BroJoeK]

gleeaikin: "Regarding our Vietnam difficulties, I have some historical perspective.
It was not long after the Johnson victory over Goldwater.
I was in my later 20s and spending some time with a mixed age group of news junkies ranging from mid 20s to mid 40s.
There was a lot of arguing about how Congress should vote on the Gulf of Tonkin resolution."

I think we are on pretty much of the same side here.

Like you, I well remember the Vietnam war, and unlike you I haven't confused or conflated the dates or sequence of events.

The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was in early August, 1964, three months before the election pitting incumbent Democrat Pres. LB Johnson against Republican "Mr. Conservative" Arizona Sen. Barry Goldwater.
In the campaign, Johnson ran "Daisy Girl" adds accusing Goldwater of wanting to start a nuclear war because Goldwater wanted to be certain, if we fight in Vietnam, we must fight to win, including potentially using tactical nukes.

In August 1964, the House of Representatives voted 416 to zero for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.
In the US Senate, only two voted against: Morse of Oregon and Gruening of Alaska.
At the time the US had around 24,000 troops in Vietnam, mostly advisors, with total forces rising to ~860,000 in 1967.

In the early years, the US public generally supported the Vietnam war, so long as we believed in the victory which Westmoreland had promised.
But when the media convinced Americans that the 1967 Communist Tet Offensive was an American defeat, many turned against the war and Democrats in Congress eventually defunded South Vietnam, leading to the disgraceful withdrawal in 1975.

The important point here, in defining what the word "conservative" means to Americans is that "Mr. Conservative", Republican Sen. Barry Goldwater, supported the war, with the caveat that he wanted to win it, with tactical nukes if necessary.

By contrast, Democrat Pres. Johnson had no plan to win the war, only to throw ever more troops into it, and then when the going got really tough, Democrats turned tails and ran away disgracefully.

That is the pattern I'd expect in Ukraine, if Democrats remain in charge after 2024.

[Az Joe]

It’s so f’d up!

[BroJoeK]

ransomnote: "Your financial data is a mess."

You can look those numbers up yourself, just google "What was the total cost of the US War on Terror" and the answer comes back as $8 trillion over 20 years, which, simple math, averages to $400 billion per year.
Of course, that is the entire War on Terror, not just the one little Afghanistan theater.

ransomnote: "The rest - you just swap the context, you’re basically using what I write and swapping the words Russia and Ukraine....while accusing ME of doing this."

Right, that's just what I did, because you make absurd accusations to me, I simply mirror imaged your own words so you can see how ridiculous they sound.

Do you understand my point here?

ransomnote: "THe Ukraine is lost.
It means NATO’s latest bid for regime change and world dominion is lost.
If Ukraine were doing as well as you claim, support would not be withdrawn.
Mercifully, the senseless killing will stop soon.
Can’t happen soon enough."

The war will end the moment Vlad the Invader orders his orcs to halt murdering, pillaging and raping in Ukraine, and to return home to Russia's recognized borders.

Baring that, I don't expect Ukrainians to ever give up, though without substantial Western aid, their fight will become increasingly desperate.

I predict: the US Congress will approve more Ukraine aid, after it's extracted some concessions from Democrats, and after Europeans step with more aid as well.

As Yogi Berra used to say: this ain't over until it's over.

[maddog55]

Twisting the point to fit your narrative... That was expected.

It would be better written if it said:

“Sometimes people don’t want to see reality because they don’t want their illusions to be destroyed.”

[blitz128]

Your insight is appreciated

South Korea would be part of North Korea if we handled them like we did south Vietnamese at the end of the war and stopped all support. We have a habit of doing that

Your point on weapons systems and costs is spot on. When yousell a used car(actually never had all of mine end up at the junk yard when I am done, had a Mazda 323 with 290k was hoping to get 323k, but almost laughably it was still Ryan’s taken for a joy ride which used up its 9th life), the new price is not part of the equation generally unless it is a lemon.
Abrams, Bradleys, Strykers, m-113 all bought and paid for and most of them are now excess and being or scheduled for replacement.

The dollar value given to them as if that is new monies out of the treasury is maddening. Additionally most of theses Espoo systems were designed and built to fight the soviets and basically that is what they are doing without the loss of US servicemembers

The Ukrainians are fighting far more like the south Koreans did, and not the Iraqis, afghans, and to some extent south Vietnamese, for sure the civilian support for Ukraine by Ukrainians far exceeds anything seen by those three

Russian continued support for the war just reinforces my opinion that the Russian psyche is unique and a combination of many factors, fear, control, lack of truth

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

INCIDENTALLY:

General Ben Hodges (comment # 69)....

"He endorsed Joe Biden in the 2020 U.S. presidential election in an op-ed with Ambassador Robert A. Mandell and Lieutenant General Donald M. Campbell Jr." In Wiki article: "Ben Hodges."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hodges

"Two retired generals, retired ambassador, all with Florida ties: Trump is unfit to lead," by Donald M. Campbell, F. Ben Hodges and Robert A. Mandell, Tallahassee Democrat, 29 October 2020.

Source: https://www.tallahassee.com/story/opinion/2020/10/29/two-retired-generals-retired-ambassador-all-florida-ties-trump-unfit-lead/6011503002/

"Biden must get Nato to arm itself for war with Russia. The clock is ticking in Ukraine"

Source: https://twitter.com/general_ben/status/1679067070871248897

Advice from the Biden-endorsing Hodges is again repeated, as has been in past months.

Slava Biden? As you wrote, "It’s so f’d up!"

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

--- "Sometimes people don’t want to see reality because they don’t want their illusions to be destroyed.”

A slice of reality, with multiple sources....

Why is U.S. still buying Russian oil? CNN Business, 4 November 2023

Opposition Grows to U.S. Imports of 'Laundered' Russian Oil New York Times, 29 June 2023

Why Are Russian Oil Products Still Being Sold in America? Project Syndicate, 3 July 2023

Pakistan Importing Russian Oil With US Approval Voice of America, 27 April 2023

How Much Oil Does the U.S. Import From Russia and Why Did Biden Ban It? Wall Street Journal, 21 April 2023

New York Is Gorging on Fuel Made From Illicit Russian Oil Bloomberg, 31 January 2023

U.S> Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products U. S. Energy Information Adminstration, EOY 2022

[2CAVTrooper]

“Ukraine soldiers who have night vision goggles and other small equipment which the Russain or Chechnian soldiers completely lack.”

The Russians never had much of a night fighting capability. Up through the late 80’s to early 90’s all their tanks had infrared searchlights mounted on them for “night fighting”.

The problem they faced is that their tanks had to close to within knife fighting distance for the IR lights to be effective, while tanks like the Abrams, Leopard, and Challenger could easily destroy them at 4 to 5 times the Russian engagement envelope.

[tennmountainman]

Slavo U Craykee to you too!

[gleeaikin]

You are right. At this late date I confused two important Vietnam votes. One was the Gulf of Tonkin vote in 1964 when Johnson became President after Kennedy’s assassination, and the other was the $700 million vote to fund the Vietnam war in 1965 after Johnson won election. Both were discussed among the people I mentioned. One was a staff member of a NY Congressman, who was among the 3 Senators and 7 Representatives who defied Johnson by NOT voting the money. See link below:

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/nyregion/john-g-dow-97-early-foe-of-vietnam-war.html

I remember the anger or amusement of people at Goldwater’s comment about “lobbing one (a nuke) into the men’s room in the Kremlin.” This was scary talk to some after experiencing the Cuban missile crisis showdown in October 1962. I know I had been scared then living within 10 miles of Washington, DC. Other vivid memories of the Vietnam War were photos effectively used that turned people against the war. One was the little girl running naked down a road apparently after having her clothes burned off by napalm. Another was a North Vietnam prisoner being shot dead by a South Vietnam officer. The same effective use of horrible photos are currently being used by the pro Palestine people as children and babies are dead and dying while Israel shells places suspected of hiding Hamas terrorists. People are starting to forget the horror of how Hamas started this whole most recent mess.

Rereading your comment, I have no memory of Goldwater talking about using “tactical” nuclear weapons to win in Vietnam. Of course “tactical” may not have been written about much by the East Coast media. I do remember one story exhibiting Goldwater as a lightweight because he liked to play jokes in his office building by sending mice in sealed containers to women through the interoffice tube delivery system.

I think the goal of those who engineered Johnson’s presidency WAS to keep throwing money at the war so the MIC1 would get very rich. Then in 1968, Richard Nixon was elected president, we had Watergate, and Gerald Ford served starting around 1974.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

CONTEXT: Slava Ukraine means “Glory to Ukraine!”

This phrase became popular among Ukrainians during the Ukrainian War of Independence from 1917 to 1921. From the 1930s Slava Ukraine was used by different Ukrainian groups, as well as Ukrainian diaspora groups and refugee communities during the Cold War.

Of course in the Soviet Union the phrase was forbidden and later other Russian authorities. The phrase eventually resurfaced in Ukraine during the country’s struggle for independence in connection with the fall of the Soviet Union.

Today, during the ongoing 2022 Russian invasion of Ukrainea “Slava Ukraine” is used in protests to support Ukraine around the world.

( Ukrainian: Слава Україні!, romanized : Sláva Ukrayíni!, IPA: [ˈsɫaʋɐ ʊkrɐˈjinʲi] ( listen)) is a Ukrainian national salute, known as a symbol of Ukrainian sovereignty and resistance and as the official salute of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

[2CAVTrooper]

“Abrams, Bradleys, Strykers, m-113 all bought and paid for and most of them are now excess and being or scheduled for replacement.”

Exactly.

The Abrams tanks we’ve sent to Ukraine were bought, paid for, and produced in the late 80’s early 90’s. We the taxpayers got our money’s worth out of them plus interest. These 31 tanks would otherwise be left to slowly rot in a field along with the 4,100+ other Abrams tanks in storage.

The Bradley’s were older models that were in storage, and were not scheduled for any upgrades to M2A3, M3A3, M2A4, or M3A4 models, or any other service life upgrades. 2,000 currently in storage.

The Strykers were also older first production vehicles that were not scheduled for remanufacture to the current “V” hull configuration.

The M113’s are rapidly being replaced by the AMPV. There was over 2,800 M113s in service, with a further 4,000+ in storage

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

“Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions to be destroyed.”

So now you are trying to get sympathy? “
https://freerepublic.com/focus/chat/4197851/posts?page=59#59

SO WRONG! Not at all.
You need to have read this thread to understand the context of comments.

Hope this helps:

maddog55 - COMMENT # 10
“Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions to be destroyed.” https://freerepublic.com/focus/chat/4197851/posts?page=10#10

Interestingly, this quote applies so well to the anti-Ukraine Freepers.

However, I merely pointed out the inaccuracy of this quote being attributed to Nietzsche. :)
https://freerepublic.com/focus/chat/4197851/posts?page=17#17

QUOTE: “QuoteFail may have it right: ‘This quote appears to have been created within the Tumblr-verse.’”
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/47732/did-nietzsche-actually-say-or-write-sometimes-people-dont-want-to-hear-the-tr

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

I thank both you and blitz128 for your comments referencing “Abrams, Bradleys, Strykers, m-113 .
https://freerepublic.com/focus/chat/4197851/posts?page=92#92

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

You were "corrected...." < s a r c >

WHOLE QUOTE is:

“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions to be destroyed.”

Interestingly, this quote appies so well to the anti-Ukrainee Freepers.

However, this quote has not been scholarly attributed to Nietzsche. NOTED: QuoteFail may have it right: “This quote appears to have been created within the Tumblr-verse.”

One observes that the source of this correction "seems" to have come from "QuoteFail."

Nope. This 'correction' you received is from another source, which only mentions "QuoteFail." As you were not given the URL, I provide it for you.

"...both QuoteFail and Wikiquotes question the attribution."

Nietzsche did write something similar, "For the historical audit brings so much to light which is false and absurd, violent and inhuman, that the condition of pious illusion falls to pieces." 1

In the same essay he wrote, "... 'he who destroys illusions in himself and others is punished by the ultimate tyrant, Nature.'"

Did Nietzsche actually say or write, "Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." Philosophy Stack Exchange

The whole article is from Stack Exchange, from which you were "corrected" with only a portion of the material.

Amusingly, someone did not bother to either include the URL for "QuoteFail" nor check it out. It fails. Rather ironic.

"The requested URL /content/friedrich-nietzsche-sometimes-people-dont-want-hear-truth was not found on this server."

https://quotefail.com/content/friedrich-nietzsche-sometimes-people-dont-want-hear-truth

Temporarily Unavailable QuoteFail "temporarily unavailable"

Mis-attributed -- as many quotes are -- the quote's sense stands. You were "corrected" with " this quote appies [sic] so well to the anti-Ukrainee [sic] Freepers."

Ironically, it applies to pro-Z and anti-Z, pro-P and anti-P alike. Nature. Reality.

"Scholarly?" Well, actually cut-and-paste, rather like other comments which so often go without citations of URLs, as if someone's own work, rather than just clipped and presented as if....

404 is a "quote fail." When writing "scholarly," it seems rather important to BE scholarly. Else "...the condition of pious illusion falls to pieces."

[bimboeruption]

FYI, I’ve have never posted any articles in favor of Putin or Russia.

I’m not a Russian propagandist. I’m an American who loves this country and who loathes those who support draining its resources dry.

[Fresh Wind]

Ukrainians have improved their corruption score by more than double, putting them well ahead of Russia today.

More than double what? Well ahead of Russia today? The 2022 numbers are Ukraine 33, Russia 28. That's hardly "well ahead" on a scale of 0 to 100.

From 2012 through 2022, the Ukr vs Rus numbers are -2, -3, -1, -2, 0, +1, +4, +2, +3, +3, +5.

Ukraine is 33 in 2022. That puts them in good company with countries like Zambia, El Salvador, Philippines, Mongolia, Algeria, and Angola. Russia's number is 28, along with Mali and Paraguay.

Even though Ukraine's number is trending upwards, it is hardly something to be proud of as they continually demand cash and weapons from the US and other countries and a meaningful audit of that assistance is not to be found.

Obviously those ratings include the worst 3rd world corruptocracies. If you look at Europe alone, the picture is much worse. Both Ukraine and Russia are right at the very bottom of the list.

Corruption Index | Europe.

The 2023 numbers will be interesting when they appear. It wouldn't surprise me if both dropped significantly.

[amnestynone]

Sometimes it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. The Russians as a culture are a very mediocre untalented people who don’t have much heart to put into a fight. Look at this video and see a very stupid untalented people. Notice how the kids show no interest and appear to be zoned out and not at all have any interest in what is happening. www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNPW230hbP4&fbclid=IwAR0AIupmGjvN6J6HcTdbgyjbynWlqg1OlXiCs76dPOB8JiGJguQ6CyP5fQo

[bimboeruption]

“The Russians as a culture are a very mediocre untalented people who don’t have much heart to put into a fight.”

You sure as hell don’t know history. Russia was instrumental in winning WW2.

https://www.rbth.com/history/336125-how-soviet-union-won-wwii

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ve-day-70th-anniversary-we-should-never-forget-the-soviets-won-world-war-ii-in-europe-10239369.html

[amnestynone]

It was more us then them. Look at the total history of Russia it is not pretty.