Posted on 09/16/2012 11:52:44 AM PDT by fabian
Now celebrating 52 years of helping people on the radio! For over half a century Roy Masters has been helping people overcome their most difficult problems. As the nation’s first and longest running radio counselor, Roy Masters has advised callers with a unique ability to hear inner problems, heal fears and sexual stresses, and help people take charge of their own lives. Great show and exactly what the world needs! Here is a radio show stations page... http://www.fhu.com/radiostations.html
What you are not getting is the “Be still and know that I am God”...in the bible. The stillness of mind..the watching of silent prayer...is where we see truth in a simple way as we did as children. Those people that wrote the bible had that stillness and we must be so enlightened as to even be able to add to the bible if we were called to. You are looking outward rather than inward to your holy spirit. This is what I mean by learned truth. It just is not solid as a rock which we need in this evil world.
The one who posted this thread is convinced that Jesus is not God. Do you agree with him? He says that he NEVER sins anymore. Do you buy it? He says that the Bible is not a closed revelation but can be added to (a new disclosure) and that what the Bible says is not that important anyway. He also insists that the man named Roy Masters is a wonderful and blessed Christian even though he teaches doctrines contrary to Holy Scripture. Have you ever heard of the man and do you agree with his gospel?
I never wrote that the bible is not that important...it is wonderful, but you guys tend to put your faith in it rather than your own holy spirit and that is where you go wrong.
Why do you presume I am "not getting" it? I know that the Bible says,
"Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth." (Psalm 46:10)
What I think you are not getting is that this is not the entire way that we are to live our lives nor the only way we can know God. We also are told,
"I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways." (Psalm 119:15)
And
But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. (Psalm 1:2)
And
My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises. (Psalm 119:148)
So meditation is ON something and someone, the Lord God and His precepts. Those "people" that wrote the Bible were divinely-inspired Holy men of God, we are told For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (II Peter 1:21) But, no, we cannot add to God's word and we won't be "called to". It is closed and has been for almost two thousand years. I am looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith and HE is my rock and my shield. Do not forsake the word of God because the Gospel is the "power of God unto salvation".
Roy has no doctrine or such other than what Jesus taught...just cut that out. You can go to his site which is provided in my post and see the real deal Christianity, nothing other than that.
No, YOU cut that out! This is NOT "real" Christianity. Let's not start the whole thing over again. From LAST Monday, from Daniel1212:
Masters states he takes the Bible literally as the word from God, versus the word of God, nor the Bible itself as holy, as consistent with his mystical viewpoint he distinguishes between the words and understanding, so that the standard for truth is not the Bible, but what the Bible awakes one in his own heart.
These points were taken from his site, and is NOT what Jesus taught at all. If you were familiar with the Bible, you would know that and instead you take what a fallible man tells you over what the word of God states. If you truly want the "real deal" Christianity, you will find your start in reading the Bible, then allowing the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth in your heart when you believe. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes. (Romans 1:16) Our faith would not be based on human wisdom but on God's power. (I Cor. 2:5).
I'm not going to keep repeating the same things and I have said all that I am going to say to you and it is up to you how you will respond to God's truth, God's way. I will pray for your eyes to be opened.
"appear" is correct. As BB points out, the word of God is unified in the mind of God, even if we sometimes have a little work to do to understand it. James does not contradict Paul, who makes it clear:
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
So how do we reconcile these two inspired writers? It’s actually not that hard. Paul is teaching that the deeds of the law cannot justify anyone. If we are justified before God, forgiven of our sin, released from our sentence of death, it is not because we perfected the art of good deeds, but because we believe in Jesus by faith, whom, BTW, Paul calls our God and Savior:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
In the Greek there’s only one definite article that applies to God and Savior, so they both apply to Jesus. As with Polycarp.
No belief in Jesus, no salvation. Pretty straightforward.
But what about James? If we already know that James does not contradict Paul, we know James is not teaching that works save. But we do see James saying that a justified man will show his faith by his works, and in this we are, I think, all in agreement:
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
A supposed faith that does not result in repentance and doing right is a false faith, an empty faith, a death faith, but certainly not the faith of which Paul spoke, a living faith that comes as a gift from God, to open blind eyes to see the need of a Savior, the need for forgiveness, and for always growing in the knowledge of Christ.
As for the thief on the cross, Jesus, being God, knew that man's faith was real, though all he had left was a few hours on the cross next to Jesus. He was no exception. He was a demonstration of the rule, set before us, not by James, not by Paul, but by Jesus Himself, so that no one would ever doubt:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
A famous preacher once said, you should never make enemies of good friends. The teaching of Paul and the teaching of James are two halves of the same coin. There is no contradiction, and a great blessing is to be had by any who will just take a small effort to understand it.
Peace,
SR
“The one who posted this thread is convinced that Jesus is not God. Do you agree with him”
Well, actually I do agree with him and I have looked into the matter extensively for over 30 years. In fact, I have an ongoing article (not quite completed) in which I discuss the matter. Probably you won’t like it, but it may be of some benefit to searching souls.
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Who is Jesus?
It is an important question. And what is the truth? At some point every Christian or aspiring Christian needs to answer this question for himself. Maybe you think it doesn’t matter? Read on.
The teaching of most Protestant Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Jesus is God, one aspect of the Trinity. Albeit, there is a slightly nuanced difference with the Eastern Church in that they believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (or so I am told). However, there are groups, most notably the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. Generally, those groups are referred to as “cults” by Trinitarians. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the only groups. Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God to name a few.
My own searching over the years has caused me to question and wonder about this and investigate the matter (and I do not belong to any of the above groups).
In the beginning of my own investigation into Christianity, I came across “tracts” that referred to Jesus as a “God Man”. I believe they were Roman Catholic tracts. Frankly, I was bothered by the idea of a man being God. Intuitively bothered. It didn’t sit well with me.
At that particular time, I attended a Victory Outreach Church briefly. I was bothered enough by the idea that I went to one of Senior Pastor’s and the question, “Is Jesus God?” I don’t recall the exact conversation but I did bring up many of the verses where Jesus is called the Son of God. I can’t recall the exact scriptures now (30 years later) but I do recall the gist of the conversation. The minister told me he had gone to the “Greek” to get his position. It was like pulling rank on an ignorant peasant. When I persisted in my questions, I was met with almost seeming hostility and told, “This Church believes in the Trinity!” The counseling session was abruptly ended.
I was bothered enough that I consulted another minister at another Church. I was told that Jesus was God’s messenger. It was told me with a certainty, and, frankly, I felt a certain inner relief.
Over the years, I have learned a few things about Christianity and the Trinity which I would like to share with you. Things I didn’t understand when the first minister pulled rank on me by saying he had gone to the “Greek”.
First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine. The Nicean Creed was voted in and is repeated in Catholic Churches at Mass to this day. But repetition by itself does not make it true.
At the time of the Council of Nicea, there was a raging controversy between those who believed that Jesus was God and those that believed Jesus was less than the Father. The latter were called Arians. An honest person has to admit it was nearly three centuries after the death of Jesus that the “official” position of the Church was that Jesus is God. That is something that most Christians don’t know today. Three centuries is a long time, longer even than the length of modern day America. It was only after all the early followers of Jesus had died out that the Doctrine of the Trinity became accepted.
And even after the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus is God, there were subsequent Church Councils that resulted in a decision to the contrary when there was a pro-Arian Roman Emperor .It is no exaggeration to say the success or failure of the Trinitarian idea much depended on what the Roman Emperor at the time believed.
Trinitarianism was finally established by law when the Emperor Theodosius issued a decree which said ,” Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.”
What could not be enforced by Church Councils was enforced by the power of the Roman state.
So what does scripture have to say about all this?
Peter’s Confession of Christ
The book of Matthew recounts the Apostle Peter’s Confession of Christ:
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you,” He asked; “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.
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There can be no doubt Peter said Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus said he is right! Jesus is also saying “Upon this rock (Upon this type of man-someone who realizes the truth for himself—he will build his Church”.
John 1:1
The scripture John 1:1 is the one most commonly used to “prove” that Jesus is God:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God” .
Does that settle the matter?
No. Wikipedia has this to say regarding John 1:1 : The proper rendering into English from the original Koine Greek text continues to be a source of vigorous debate among Bible translators.
For example:
1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: “...and what God was, the Word was”
You can read the entire Wikipedia article if you wish.
The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error. Of course, there may be some of you who are thinking “But Trinitarian Theology is the historical doctrine of the Christian Church.”
Well, not exactly. It has been the Doctrine of the Church only since 325 A.D. Almost 300 years elapsed before it became creed or dogma that Jesus is God. 300 years is a long time. America has not even been in existence 300 years.
One highly relevant scripture in John is cited below. It says what the purpose of the book of John is:
John 20:30-31
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you mighthave life through his name.
It is an internal contradiction within the Book of John to use it to “prove” that Jesus is God, since the book clearly states that is not its purpose. Those that use the Book of John to “prove” Jesus is God are not using it for its intended purpose. Something to reflect upon.
Paul’s Conversion on the road to Damascus
Let us turn briefly to the Apostle Paul and his conversion on the road to Damascus, and what the Scripture has to say regarding it. As you may recall, Paul has a mystical encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and was blind for three days. The Disciple Ananais went to the stricken Paul and laid hands on him. Paul received his sight and was baptized with the Spirit.
“And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the Synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
There can be no doubt that after his conversion that Scripture says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God!\
(to be continued)
He does deny that Jesus was God in that letter, but the quote you included was actually from the debate tape (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2011/06/05/walter-martin-takes-on-roy-masters.mp3) which i referenced (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2931985/posts?page=16#16), which is more revealing than what Masters choose to say in his letter to the churches.
Then there are his Freudian teachings (which he gets in his meditations, and can include cold shivers, etc), such as shown before (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=172#172).
But it remains that Fabians basis is that she puts her faith in her “own holy spirit” rather than the Scriptures (which she faults us for doing), and on that basis anything can be taught as being from Jesus.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. “ (1 John 4:1)
Master is simply one of the “foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit,” (Ezekiel 13:3) which we examine in the light of the established Word of God, the Scriptures.
And as is has been clearly substantiated that Masters clearly contradicts Scripture then this is getting old.
Yes, and this is what I have trying to get you and others to see. You have made a religion of the written word and that is a fatal error. You need to see that. Even in revelations it says that the scripture could be altered and those that did it would suffer the consequences. And all but this holy grail of Jesus is God mantra, on Roy’s site is indeed Christian and anyone can discern that easily.
In all of the wonderful parables that Jesus taught with, is there one that deals with him being God and the son and father being identical, the same in spirit and power? I am certain if our salvation hinged on that he would have done that! Yet he did not!
You have a lot of catching up to do in defending Masters (and Arianism), and rather than refuting his advocates again, see post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=194#194 and links and sub links and pertinent posts.
And btw, Masters thinks that when Christ said to Peter, “Upon this rock I will build my church, he meant that the body of God is to be made up of people who see for themselves and who are taught by no man.” (http://www.theworldviewcenter.org/encyclopedia_foundationforhumanunderstanding.html)
And while you want to argue Scripture and the meaning of words, this is censured by Masters, who sees no problem using the Bible as toilet paper and disparages historical means of exegesis, as it is his own “holy spirit” and the revelations he gets thereby, with or without the Bible, that is “holy” to him and his mesmerized disciples.
Is the bible alive with the spirit itself? Of course not...it is a book. If God wanted us to base our lives on a book He would have made certain that it could not be altered. Yet we know there are many mistranslation, slight as they seem, and the King James version...much was taken away. It is the holy spirit that is our base of life because it is the direct link to God. Why is that so hard for you to get?
I had never heard of this man, and listened to the online recordings of his radio programs. Only a taste was sufficient to spit this man out like poison. I feel he only can appeal to the weak minded. His unbelievable pride, arrogance, and self worship would seem to be neon stop signs to the rational mind; he obviously is in contact with no higher power than himself... and self worship actually seems to be the bedrock of some of his teaching!
If people want to take him as their god, go right ahead. We’re no longer permitted to question the godhood of Mormons, so if spiritual con jobs are approved for the goose, they should be approved for the gander...AFAIC it’s spiritual Darwinism at work. Christians should work in the delivery room of truth... we’ve got enough on our hands without breastfeeding, diaper changing, and sending the truth off to school. Our priority should be the spiritual warriors of tomorrow, not the weak sisters who can’t even stand on their own two feet today...I’m sorry, but the time is short, the conflict is coming, and my account of focus and concern is on a budget.
He reminds me of a spiritual huckster that afflicted a small community in the Midwest where I was living... he became very popular with bored teenagers, and he let them around on a string for about a year, before he was ridden out of town on a rail. I personally asked some young girls why they followed a man who took their money, physically beat up and sexually abused them, and spent their money on drunken parties and hard drugs? Immediately they answered, because he’s a holy man. I asked, well, what in your mind made him a holy man? Then they would look confused for just a moment, but the answer always was the same: Because he had long hair, because he wore a beard, because he dressed in a robe every day, because he wore sandals every day, even in the snow.
I guess if you wear sandals, people will follow you, even into a ditch. The spiritual power of open toe footwear... Who knew?
easy now fabie, repeat after your master masters ooooooomg, oooooooomg.
Thanks for writing my true name, so kind of you! I see you are behaving like the true Christian that you say you are! Hah!
And that is not the type of exercise the Be Still is, so quit misrepresenting it. There is no mantra and it is biblical indeed. Good luck with your poor attitude, you need it!
Really a shame that you had such a bad reaction that to a man that is truly helpig people attach to their holy spirit in a simple and biblical way. He never wants anyone to put him on a pedestal and is quit strong with anyone that does, do you are very wrong about that.
Yep, odd thing about the Bible as toilet paper. Jim Jones said the same thing. Could it be that the same spirit of evil is behind that obvious hatred of the Bible? Who was it who first tried to separate believers from God’s word by shifting the focus from God’s command to man’s heart? “Hath God said...,” the words that began our long journey into darkness, and do we ever learn?
Roy is a Jew and loves the bible...he obviously was making a descriptive point about your type who worship the written word as opposed to the holy spirit who wrote those words!
deep breaths fabie, deep breaths. Follow the eastern meditation your master masters commands. Empty your mind.
Do not know what you are talking about...Roy’s be still is not empting the mind nor eastern. And I am very happy thank you! I think this is Linda just trying to irritate me. You will need to try harder!
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