“The one who posted this thread is convinced that Jesus is not God. Do you agree with him”
Well, actually I do agree with him and I have looked into the matter extensively for over 30 years. In fact, I have an ongoing article (not quite completed) in which I discuss the matter. Probably you won’t like it, but it may be of some benefit to searching souls.
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Who is Jesus?
It is an important question. And what is the truth? At some point every Christian or aspiring Christian needs to answer this question for himself. Maybe you think it doesnt matter? Read on.
The teaching of most Protestant Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Jesus is God, one aspect of the Trinity. Albeit, there is a slightly nuanced difference with the Eastern Church in that they believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (or so I am told). However, there are groups, most notably the Mormons and the Jehovahs Witnesses who believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. Generally, those groups are referred to as cults by Trinitarians. Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses are not the only groups. Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God to name a few.
My own searching over the years has caused me to question and wonder about this and investigate the matter (and I do not belong to any of the above groups).
In the beginning of my own investigation into Christianity, I came across tracts that referred to Jesus as a God Man. I believe they were Roman Catholic tracts. Frankly, I was bothered by the idea of a man being God. Intuitively bothered. It didnt sit well with me.
At that particular time, I attended a Victory Outreach Church briefly. I was bothered enough by the idea that I went to one of Senior Pastors and the question, Is Jesus God? I dont recall the exact conversation but I did bring up many of the verses where Jesus is called the Son of God. I cant recall the exact scriptures now (30 years later) but I do recall the gist of the conversation. The minister told me he had gone to the Greek to get his position. It was like pulling rank on an ignorant peasant. When I persisted in my questions, I was met with almost seeming hostility and told, This Church believes in the Trinity! The counseling session was abruptly ended.
I was bothered enough that I consulted another minister at another Church. I was told that Jesus was Gods messenger. It was told me with a certainty, and, frankly, I felt a certain inner relief.
Over the years, I have learned a few things about Christianity and the Trinity which I would like to share with you. Things I didnt understand when the first minister pulled rank on me by saying he had gone to the Greek.
First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine. The Nicean Creed was voted in and is repeated in Catholic Churches at Mass to this day. But repetition by itself does not make it true.
At the time of the Council of Nicea, there was a raging controversy between those who believed that Jesus was God and those that believed Jesus was less than the Father. The latter were called Arians. An honest person has to admit it was nearly three centuries after the death of Jesus that the official position of the Church was that Jesus is God. That is something that most Christians dont know today. Three centuries is a long time, longer even than the length of modern day America. It was only after all the early followers of Jesus had died out that the Doctrine of the Trinity became accepted.
And even after the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus is God, there were subsequent Church Councils that resulted in a decision to the contrary when there was a pro-Arian Roman Emperor .It is no exaggeration to say the success or failure of the Trinitarian idea much depended on what the Roman Emperor at the time believed.
Trinitarianism was finally established by law when the Emperor Theodosius issued a decree which said , Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.
What could not be enforced by Church Councils was enforced by the power of the Roman state.
So what does scripture have to say about all this?
Peters Confession of Christ
The book of Matthew recounts the Apostle Peters Confession of Christ:
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?
14 They replied, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
15 But what about you, He asked; Who do you say I am?
16 Simon Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
17 Jesus replied, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
20 Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.
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There can be no doubt Peter said Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus said he is right! Jesus is also saying Upon this rock (Upon this type of man-someone who realizes the truth for himselfhe will build his Church.
John 1:1
The scripture John 1:1 is the one most commonly used to “prove” that Jesus is God:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God” .
Does that settle the matter?
No. Wikipedia has this to say regarding John 1:1 : The proper rendering into English from the original Koine Greek text continues to be a source of vigorous debate among Bible translators.
For example:
1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: “...and what God was, the Word was”
You can read the entire Wikipedia article if you wish.
The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error. Of course, there may be some of you who are thinking “But Trinitarian Theology is the historical doctrine of the Christian Church.”
Well, not exactly. It has been the Doctrine of the Church only since 325 A.D. Almost 300 years elapsed before it became creed or dogma that Jesus is God. 300 years is a long time. America has not even been in existence 300 years.
One highly relevant scripture in John is cited below. It says what the purpose of the book of John is:
John 20:30-31
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you mighthave life through his name.
It is an internal contradiction within the Book of John to use it to prove that Jesus is God, since the book clearly states that is not its purpose. Those that use the Book of John to “prove” Jesus is God are not using it for its intended purpose. Something to reflect upon.
Pauls Conversion on the road to Damascus
Let us turn briefly to the Apostle Paul and his conversion on the road to Damascus, and what the Scripture has to say regarding it. As you may recall, Paul has a mystical encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and was blind for three days. The Disciple Ananais went to the stricken Paul and laid hands on him. Paul received his sight and was baptized with the Spirit.
And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the Synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
There can be no doubt that after his conversion that Scripture says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God!\
(to be continued)
You have a lot of catching up to do in defending Masters (and Arianism), and rather than refuting his advocates again, see post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=194#194 and links and sub links and pertinent posts.
And btw, Masters thinks that when Christ said to Peter, “Upon this rock I will build my church, he meant that the body of God is to be made up of people who see for themselves and who are taught by no man.” (http://www.theworldviewcenter.org/encyclopedia_foundationforhumanunderstanding.html)
And while you want to argue Scripture and the meaning of words, this is censured by Masters, who sees no problem using the Bible as toilet paper and disparages historical means of exegesis, as it is his own “holy spirit” and the revelations he gets thereby, with or without the Bible, that is “holy” to him and his mesmerized disciples.