Found: the Sister Cleopatra Killed

The Times (London) ^ | March 15, 2009 | Daniel Foggo

[nickcarraway]

ARCHEOLOGISTS and forensic experts believe they have identified the skeleton of Cleopatra’s younger sister, murdered more than 2,000 years ago on the orders of the Egyptian queen.

The remains of Princess Arsinöe, put to death in 41BC on the orders of Cleopatra and her Roman lover Mark Antony to eliminate her as a rival, are the first relics of the Ptolemaic dynasty to be identified.

The breakthrough, by an Austrian team, has provided pointers to Cleopatra’s true ethnicity. Scholars have long debated whether she was Greek or Macedonian like her ancestor the original Ptolemy, a Macedonian general who was made ruler of Egypt by Alexander the Great, or whether she was north African.

Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives.

Related Links Temple site ‘hides tomb of Cleopatra’ Preserver of the lost artefacts Call for return of Egyptian treasures The results vindicate the theories of Hilke Thür of the Austrian Academy of Sciences, who has long claimed that the skeleton was Arsinöe. She described the discovery of Arsinöe’s ethnicity as “a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra’s family”.

Fellow experts are now convinced. GüntherHölbl, an authority on the Ptolemies, said the identification of the skeleton was “a great discovery”.

The forensic evidence was obtained by a team working under the auspices of the Austrian Archeological Institute, which is set to detail its findings at an anthropological convention in the UnitedStates later this month.

The story of the discovery will also be the subject of a tele-vision documentary, Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer, to be shown on BBC1 at 9pm next Monday.

[gussiefinknottle]

I thought Barbra Streisand!

[windcliff]

LOL

[Polybius]

That middle one looks like Sylvester Stallone. .... gopheraj

If that coin is really a portrait of Marc Antony, he wasn’t much to look at either. ...... Tamar1973

The middle one that looks like Sylvester Stallone would be Mark Antony. Cleopatra appeared on the other side of that coin. To be fair, how you looked on a coin depended on the skill and artistic license of the celator (the artist that engraved the coin die).

In the civil war between Antony and Octavian, Antony and Cleopatra had the eastern portion of the Empire and the celators in Egypt and Syria had a much cruder style at the time.

The coin below was engraved by a Roman celator during the Second Triumvirate when Octavian and Antony were allies and political equals, both with the same title of "Imperator" (IMP). At the time "Imperator" simply meant "Commander" and the commander of any Army minting coins for his Army could title himself an "Imperator".

As can be seen, Antony looks much more handsome when portrayed by the Roman celator. In this coin, the boyish Octavian had a peach-fuzz beard, a sign of mourning for his great-uncle Julius.

Compare that portrait of Antony with this much cruder one made by an eastern celator.

Other coin portraits of the period include:

Julius Caesar (By Roman celators. Skinny, chicken-necked and balding up front. In the first coin, he is only titled IMP, "Imperator". By the time the second coin was minted, he was titled DICT PERPETVO, "Perpetual Dictator".):

Brutus (By a Roman celator. Note that, as Commander of his Army, he also is titled IMP, "Imperator".):

Pompeii (By a Roman celator. Minted pothumously by his son Sextus circa 40 BC):

Another Antony and Cleopatra, circa 34 BC, Alexandria mint, again in a much cruder style of the eastern celators:

Caesar Agustus (Now all grown up, in sole power and made to look "absolutely maaaahvelous" by the Roman celator):

[nickcarraway]

I bet you wouldn’t say that to his face.

[Tamar1973]

Sure I would (just like all the men on this thread who dissed Cleo’s looks would tell her to her face that she looked like a hag).

[nickcarraway]

Well, I think in either case, the result would not be felicitous. Monarchs can be touchy about these things. Besides, it’s rude.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Actually, aside from the long, straight hair, she bears an uncanny resemblence to Gracie Allen (George Burns's wife and sidekick):

[SunkenCiv]

Heh... I *am* the thread police...

Found: the sister Cleopatra killed
The Times | March 15, 2009 | Daniel Foggo
Posted on 03/15/2009 2:18:56 AM PDT by BlackVeil
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2206883/posts

Skeleton of Cleopatra’s Murdered Sister Identified
Fox | March 15, 2009
Posted on 03/15/2009 3:13:37 PM PDT by RDTF
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2207177/posts

[SunkenCiv]

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[nickcarraway]

I searched 8 ways from Sunday, and the most recent thread I found searching, “Cleopatra,” was from December.

[nickcarraway]

Say goodnight, Cleopatra.

[malkee]

There’s a wonderful novel by Margaret George called “The Memoirs of Cleopatra,” which sparked my interest in the subject. Mostly fiction, of course, but Arsinoe is a main character and her death is detailed.

[Impy]

Murdering witch, she got hers though when Octavian had her son whacked.

[apro]

More fictional claims that try to pass themselves off as ‘science’. Neither Cleopatra nor her sister nor her mother were of ‘African’ origins. They are basing their this dubious claim that she was ‘mixed’ on the SHAPE of a SKULL that they do not have, not DNA evidence. The crucial skull, on which the ethnic arguments are based, is lost. No skull to conduct facial reconstruction and those they used based upon measurements from a century ago any professional would tell you are bogus. You need the actual skull or at least cast of the skull to conduct facial reconstructions. Their only ‘claim’ that she was ‘African’ is based upon the supposed ‘long shaped skull’. I hate to break it to them but long shaped skulls are also common among many other ethnicities including southern EUROPEANS, the TRUE origins of Cleopatra, her mother and her sister.

Lastly, they are forgetting the fundamental reason WHY her mother COULD NOT have been of ‘African’ or native Egyptian origins: because the only way a Ptolemy inherits the throne was if the mother had a direct blood descedant to the Ptolemiac Dynasty, and a phantom ‘African’ or a native Egyptian woman would NOT have a direct bloodline to the Ptolemiac Dynasty because she would NOT be of Ptolemaic royalty. The Ptolemaic Dynasty followed the matrilinear nature of succession, a system in which one belongs to one’s mother’s lineage; inheritance of property or titles through the female line, and some phantom “African” or native Egyptian DID NOT HAVE lineage of property to the Ptolemaic Dyansty. This is why extensive inbreeding matings occurred in the Ptolemaic Dynasty to prevent pretenders to the throne when they tried to bolster their claims by marriage to a sister. Such marriage though lead to amphimetric among different male relatives over the blood related female relatives of the Greco-Macedonian Dynasties.

[apro]

The Ptolemaic Dynasty followed the matrilinear nature of succession, a system in which one belongs to one’s mother’s lineage; inheritance of property or titles went thru the female line, and femaled had to have been of Greco-Macedonian lineage or else any children or grandchildren were not viewed as part of the Ptolemaic lineage. Similar to the ancient Hebrew matrilinear system where one can only claim being ‘Jewish’ if ones mother was Jewish. So there is no way Cleopatra, her sister nor her mother were of ‘mixed’ African or native Eygptian origins.

[SunkenCiv]

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·
	Gods Graves Glyphs	Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
·Dogpile · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology · Biblical Archaeology Society · · Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · Google · · The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·

[SunkenCiv]

the Arsinöe IV topics:

• Researchers claim to have found Cleopatra's murdered sister in Turkey [2013]
• Skeleton of Cleopatra's Murdered Sister Identified [2009]
• Found: the sister Cleopatra killed [2009]

[Night Hides Not]

Archeologists have recently determined that Arsinoe’s death was, in fact, due to an ancient form of Covid-19.