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What Does the Fossil Record Show?
Creation or Evolution: Does it Really Matter What You Believe? ^ | 1998 | Various

Posted on 07/22/2006 5:35:21 AM PDT by DouglasKC

What Does the Fossil Record Show?

Can the theory of evolution be proven? After all, it is called the theory of evolution in acknowledgment that it is a hypothesis rather than a confirmed scientific fact.

Where can we find evidence supporting evolution as an explanation for the teeming variety of life on earth?

Since evolutionists claim that the transition from one species to a new one takes place in tiny, incremental changes over millions of years, they acknowledge that we cannot observe the process taking place today. Our lifespans simply are too short to directly observe such a change.

Instead, they say, we have to look at the past-the fossil record that shows the many life forms that have existed over earth's history-to find transitions from one species to another.

Darwin's greatest challenge

When Charles Darwin proposed his theory in the mid-19th century, he was confident that fossil discoveries would provide clear and convincing evidence that his conjectures were correct. His theory predicted that countless transitional forms must have existed, all gradually blending almost imperceptibly from one tiny step to the next, as species progressively evolved to higher, better-adapted forms.

Indeed that would have to be the case. Well in excess of a million species are alive today. For all those to have evolved from common ancestors, we should be able to find millions if not hundreds of millions of intermediate forms gradually evolving into other species.

It was not only fossils of transitional species between apes and humans that would have to be discovered to prove Darwin's theory. The gaps were enormous. Science writer Richard Milton notes that the missing links "included every part of the animal kingdom: from whelks to whales and from bacteria to bactrian camels. Darwin and his successors envisaged a process that would begin with simple marine organisms living in ancient seas, progressing through fishes, to amphibians-living partly in the sea and partly on land-and hence on to reptiles, mammals, and eventually the primates, including humans" (Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, 1997, p. 253).

However, even Darwin himself struggled with the fact that the fossil record failed to support his conclusions. ". . . Why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? . . . Why do we not find them imbedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?" (Origin of Species, 1958 Masterpieces of Science edition, pp. 136-137).

". . . The number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed, [must] be truly enormous," he wrote. "Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory [of evolution]" (Darwin, pp. 260-261).

Darwin acknowledged that the fossil record failed to support his conclusions. But, since he thought his theory obviously was the correct explanation for earth's many and varied forms of life, he and others thought it only a matter of time before fossilized missing links would be found to fill in the many gaps. His answer for the lack of fossil evidence to support his theory was that scientists hadn't looked long enough and hadn't looked in the right places. Eventually they would find the predicted fossil remains that would prove his view. "The explanation lies, I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record," he wrote (p. 261).

He was convinced that later explorations and discoveries would fill in the abundant gaps where the transitional species on which his theory was based were missing. But now, a century and a half later, after literally hundreds of thousands of fossil plants and animals have been discovered and cataloged and with few corners of the globe unexplored, what does the fossil record show?

What the record reveals

David Raup is a firm believer in evolution and a respected paleontologist (scientist who studies fossils) at the University of Chicago and the Field Museum. However, he admits that the fossil record has been misinterpreted if not outright mischaracterized. He writes: "A large number of well-trained scientists outside of evolutionary biology and paleontology have unfortunately gotten the idea that the fossil record is far more Darwinian than it is. This probably comes from the oversimplification inevitable in secondary sources: low-level textbooks, semi-popular articles, and so on. Also, there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard, and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks" (Science, Vol. 213, p. 289, emphasis added).

Niles Eldredge, curator in the department of invertebrates at the American Museum of Natural History and adjunct professor at the City University of New York, is another vigorous supporter of evolution. But he finds himself forced to admit that the fossil record fails to support the traditional evolutionary view.

"No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long," he writes. "It seems never to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yields zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of change-over millions of years, at a rate too slow to really account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history.

"When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the organisms did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on someplace else. Yet that's how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution" (Reinventing Darwin: The Great Debate at the High Table of Evolutionary Theory, 1995, p. 95, emphasis added).

After an immense worldwide search by geologists and paleontologists, the "missing links" Darwin predicted would be found to bolster his theory are still missing.

Harvard University paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould is perhaps today's best-known popular writer on evolution. An ardent evolutionist, he collaborated with Professor Eldredge in proposing alternatives to the traditional view of Darwinism. Like Eldredge, he recognizes that the fossil record fundamentally conflicts with Darwin's idea of gradualism.

"The history of most fossil species," he writes, "includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism [gradual evolution from one species to another]:

"[1] Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional [evolutionary] change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking pretty much the same as when they disappear; morphological [anatomical or structural] change is usually limited and directionless.

"[2] Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors: it appears all at once and 'fully formed'" (Gould, "Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, May 1977, pp. 13-14).

Fossils missing in crucial places

Francis Hitching, member of the Royal Archaeological Institute, the Prehistoric Society and the Society for Physical Research, also sees problems in using the fossil record to support Darwinism.

"There are about 250,000 different species of fossil plants and animals in the world's museums," he writes. "This compares with about 1.5 million species known to be alive on Earth today. Given the known rates of evolutionary turnover, it has been estimated that at least 100 times more fossil species have lived than have been discovered . . . But the curious thing is that there is a consistency about the fossil gaps: the fossils go missing in all the important places.

"When you look for links between major groups of animals, they simply aren't there; at least, not in enough numbers to put their status beyond doubt. Either they don't exist at all, or they are so rare that endless argument goes on about whether a particular fossil is, or isn't, or might be, transitional between this group and that.

". . . There ought to be cabinets full of intermediates-indeed, one would expect the fossils to blend so gently into one another that it would be difficult to tell where the invertebrates ended and the vertebrates began. But this isn't the case. Instead, groups of well-defined, easily classifiable fish jump into the fossil record seemingly from nowhere: mysteriously, suddenly, full-formed, and in a most un-Darwinian way. And before them are maddening, illogical gaps where their ancestors should be" (The Neck of the Giraffe: Darwin, Evolution and the New Biology, 1982, pp. 9-10, emphasis added).

Acknowledging that the fossil record contradicts rather than supports Darwinism, professors Eldredge and Gould have proposed a radically different theory they call "punctuated equilibrium": that bursts of evolution occurred in small, isolated populations that then became dominant and showed no change over millions and millions of years. This, they say, is the only way to explain the lack of evidence for evolution in the fossil record.

As Newsweek explains: "In 1972 Gould and Niles Eldredge collaborated on a paper intended at the time merely to resolve a professional embarrassment for paleontologists: their inability to find the fossils of transitional forms between species, the so-called 'missing links.' Darwin, and most of those who followed him, believed that the work of evolution was slow, gradual and continuous and that a complete lineage of ancestors, shading imperceptibly one into the next, could in theory be reconstructed for all living animals . . . But a century of digging since then has only made their absence more glaring . . . It was Eldredge and Gould's notion to call off the search and accept the evidence of the fossil record on its own terms" ("Enigmas of Evolution," March 29, 1982, p. 39, emphasis added).

As some observers point out, this is an inherently unprovable theory for which the primary evidence to support it is lack of evidence in the fossil record to support transitional forms between species.

Fossil record no longer incomplete

The fossil record has been thoroughly explored and documented. Darwin's excuse of "extreme imperfection of the geological record" is no longer credible.

How complete is the fossil record? Michael Denton is a medical doctor and biological researcher. He writes that "when estimates are made of the percentage of [now-] living forms found as fossils, the percentage turns out to be surprisingly high, suggesting that the fossil record may not be as bad as is often maintained" (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1985, p. 189).

He explains that "of the 329 living families of terrestrial vertebrates [mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians] 261 or 79.1 percent have been found as fossils and, when birds (which are poorly fossilized) are excluded, the percentage rises to 87.8 percent" (Denton, p. 189).

In other words, almost 88 percent of the varieties of mammals, reptiles and amphibians populating earth have been found in the fossil record. How many transitional forms, then, have been found? ". . . Although each of these classes [fishes, amphibians, reptiles, mammals and primates] is well represented in the fossil record, as of yet no one has discovered a fossil creature that is indisputably transitional between one species and another species. Not a single undisputed 'missing link' has been found in all the exposed rocks of the Earth's crust despite the most careful and extensive searches" (Milton, pp. 253-254, emphasis added).

If Darwin's theory were true, transitional creatures such as invertebrates with partially developed backbones, fish with rudimentary legs, reptiles with primitive wings and innumerable creatures with semievolved anatomical features should be the rule, scattered throughout the fossil strata. But they are nonexistent.

What about fossil proofs?

At times various fossil species have been presented as firm proof of evolution at work. Perhaps the most famous is the supposed evolution of the horse as presented in many biology textbooks. But is it what it is claimed to be?

Notice what Professor Eldredge has to say about this classic "proof" of evolution: "George Gaylord Simpson spent a considerable segment of his career on horse evolution. His overall conclusion: Horse evolution was by no means the simple, linear and straightforward affair it was made out to be ... Horse evolution did not proceed in one single series, from step A to step B and so forth, culminating in modern, single-toed large horses. Horse evolution, to Simpson, seemed much more bushy, with lots of species alive at any one time-species that differed quite a bit from one another, and which had variable numbers of toes, size of teeth, and so forth.

"In other words, it is easy, and all too tempting, to survey the fossil history of a group and select examples that seem best to exemplify linear change through time ... But picking out just those species that exemplify intermediate stages along a trend, while ignoring all other species that don't seem to fit in as well, is something else again. The picture is distorted. The actual evolutionary pattern isn't fully represented" (Niles Eldredge, The Great Debate, p. 131).

Eldredge in effect admits that paleontologists picked and chose which species they thought fit best with their theory and ignored the rest. George Gaylord Simpson himself was more blunt: "The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium [a fossil species thought to be the ancestor of the horse] into Equus [the modern horse], so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature" (Life of the Past, 1953, p. 119).

Professor Raup elaborates on the problem paleontologists face in trying to demonstrate evolution from the fossil record: ". . . We are now about 120 years after Darwin, and knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time.

"By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information-what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic [evolutionary]" ("Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology," Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin 50, January 1979, pp. 22-25, emphasis added).

Paleontology's well-kept secret

What does all this mean? In plain language, if evolution means the gradual change of one kind of organism into another kind, the outstanding characteristic of the fossil record is the absence of evidence for evolution-and abundant evidence to the contrary. The only logical place to find proof for evolutionary theory is in the fossil record. But, rather than showing slow, gradual change over eons, with new species continually emerging, the fossils show the opposite.

Professor Eldredge touched on the magnitude of the problem when he admitted that Darwin "essentially invented a new field of scientific inquiry-what is now called 'taphonomy'-to explain why the fossil record is so deficient, so full of gaps, that the predicted patterns of gradual change simply do not emerge" (Eldredge, pp. 95-96, emphasis added).

Professor Gould similarly admits that the "extreme rarity" of evidence for evolution in the fossil record is "the trade secret of paleontology." He goes on to acknowledge that "the evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils" ("Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, May 1977, p. 14, emphasis added).

But do paleontologists share this trade secret with others? Hardly. "Reading popular or even textbook introductions to evolution, . . . you might hardly guess that they [fossil gaps] exist, so glibly and confidently do most authors slide through them. In the absence of fossil evidence, they write what have been termed 'just so' stories. A suitable mutation just happened to take place at the crucial moment, and hey presto, a new stage of evolution was reached" (Hitching, pp. 12-13).

Regarding this misrepresentation of the evidence, Phillip Johnson writes: "Just about everyone who took a college biology course during the last sixty years or so has been led to believe that the fossil record was a bulwark of support for the classic Darwinian thesis, not a liability that had to be explained away . . .

"The fossil record shows a consistent pattern of sudden appearance followed by a stasis, that life's history is more a story of variation around a set of basic designs than one of accumulating improvement, that extinction has been predominantly by catastrophe rather than gradual obsolescence, and that orthodox interpretations of the fossil record often owe more to Darwinist preconception than to the evidence itself.

Paleontologists seem to have thought it their duty to protect the rest of us from the erroneous conclusions we might have drawn if we had known the actual state of the evidence" (Darwin on Trial, 1993, pp. 58-59).

The secret evolutionists don't want revealed is that, even by their own interpretations, the fossil record shows fully formed species appearing for a time and then disappearing with no change. Other species appeared at other times before they, too, disappeared with little or no change. The fossil record simply does not support the central thesis of Darwinism, that species slowly and gradually evolved from one form to another.

Fact or interesting speculation?

Professor Johnson notes that "Darwinists consider evolution to be a fact, not just a theory, because it provides a satisfying explanation for the pattern of relationship linking all living creatures-a pattern so identified in their minds with what they consider to be the necessary cause of the pattern-descent with modification-that, to them, biological relationship means evolutionary relationship" (Johnson, p. 63, emphasis in original). The deceptive, smoke-and-mirror language of evolution revolves largely around the classification of living species. Darwinists attempt to explain natural relationships they observe in the animal and plant world by categorizing animal and plant life according to physical similarities. It could be said that Darwin's theory is nothing more than educated observance of the obvious; that is, the conclusion that most animals appear to be related to one another because most animals have one or more characteristics in common.

For instance, you might have a superficial classification of whales, penguins and sharks in a group classified as aquatic animals. You might also have birds, bats and bees grouped as flying creatures. These are not the final classifications because there are many other obvious differences. The Darwinist approach, however, is to use the obvious general similarities to show, not that animals were alike in many ways, but that they were related to each other by descent from common ancestors.

Professor Johnson expresses it this way: "Darwin proposed a naturalistic explanation for the essentialist features of the living world that was so stunning in its logical appeal that it conquered the scientific world even while doubts remained about some important parts of his theory. He theorized that the discontinuous groups of the living world were the descendants of long-extinct common ancestors. Relatively closely related groups (like reptiles, birds, and mammals) shared a relatively recent common ancestor; all vertebrates shared a more ancient common ancestor; and all animals shared a still more ancient common ancestor. He then proposed that the ancestors must have been linked to their descendants by long chains of transitional intermediates, also extinct" (Johnson, p. 64).

Evolutionists exercise selective perception when looking at the evidence-rather like deciding whether to view half a glass of water as half empty or half full. They choose to dwell on similarities rather than differences. By doing so they lead you away from the truth of the matter: that similarities are evidence of a common Designer behind the structure and function of the life forms. Each species of animal was created and designed to exist and thrive in a particular way. Darwin and the subsequent proponents of the evolutionary view of life focused on similarities within the major classifications of animals and drew the assumption that those similarities prove that all animals are related to one another through common ancestors.

However, there are major differences in the life forms on earth. If, as evolution supposes, all life forms had common ancestors and chains of intermediates linking those ancestors, the fossil record should overflow with many such intermediate forms between species. But, as we have seen earlier, paleontologists themselves admit it shows no such thing.

Simple life forms?

Since the fossil record does not support the traditional evolutionary view, what does it show?

We have already seen how several well-known paleontologists admit that the fossil record shows the sudden appearance of life forms. As Stephen Jay Gould puts it: "In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors: it appears all at once and 'fully formed'" (Gould, "Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, May 1977, pp. 13-14).

When we sweep away the evolutionary bias inherent in most views, the fossil record does not show a gradual ascent from simple to complex. Some of the earliest fossils found are bacteria. What is interesting about bacteria is that they are not simple organisms at all.

In reality there are no simple life forms. Modern technology has shown that even a single cell is extraordinarily complex.

Michael Behe is associate professor of biochemistry at Pennsylvania's Lehigh University. Noting scientists' changing perceptions of the most elementary forms of life, he writes: "We humans tend to have a rather exalted opinion of ourselves, and that attitude can color our perception of the biological world. In particular, our attitude about what is higher and lower in biology, what is an advanced organism and what is a primitive organism, starts with the presumption that the pinnacle of nature is ourselves . . . Nonetheless, other organisms, if they could talk, could argue strongly for their own superiority. This includes bacteria, which we often think of as the rudest forms of life" (Darwin's Black Box, 1996, pp. 69-70).

When Darwin wrote Origin of Species almost a century and a half ago, scientists did not know nearly as much about the cell (and single-celled organisms) as we do today. Darwin thought that single-celled organisms were quite primitive. In fact, at that time many still thought that life could arise naturally from nonliving matter-for example, that decaying meat spontaneously produced flies.

Years passed before French scientist Louis Pasteur convincingly demonstrated, through a series of meticulous experiments, the impossibility of the notion. Yet even Pasteur had quite a battle with scientists of his day convincing them that life came only from preexisting life forms. So Darwin's idea-that single-celled meant simple-was not questioned at the time. Later discoveries have shown that even the single-celled organisms found early in the fossil record are far more complex than Darwin and others could have imagined.

An explosion of life forms

Paleontologists widely consider the Cambrian period, one of the oldest in their view, to be the earliest in which extensive life forms are preserved. Since only the remains of marine life are found in Cambrian strata, paleontologists interpret these deposits as dating to a time before land animals had evolved.

The Encarta Encyclopedia says of this time: "By the beginning of the Paleozoic Era, the steadily increasing oxygen content of the atmosphere and oceans . . . had made it possible for the marine environment to support new forms of life that could derive energy from respiration. Although life had not yet invaded dry land or the air, the seas of the Cambrian Period teemed with a great variety of marine invertebrates, including sponges, worms, bryozoans ('moss animals'), hydrozoans, brachiopods, mollusks (among them the gastropods and species ancestral to the nautilus), primitive arthropods such as the trilobite, and a few species of stalked echinoderms.

"The only plant life of the time consisted of marine algae. Because many of these new organisms were relatively large, complex marine invertebrates with hard shells and skeletons of chitin or lime, they had a far better chance of fossil preservation than the soft-bodied creatures of the previous Precambrian Era" (1997, "Cambrian Period," emphasis added).

Notice that complex marine invertebrates are found in fossil deposits from the Cambrian period. Many don't realize it, but even paleontologists acknowledge that life does not start with only a few simple creatures. At the lowest levels of the geologic strata, the fossil record consists of complex creatures such as trilobites.

Time magazine said in a long cover story describing fossilized creatures found in Cambrian strata: "In a burst of creativity like nothing before or since, nature appears to have sketched out the blueprints for virtually the whole of the animal kingdom. This explosion of biological diversity is described by scientists as biology's Big Bang" (Madeleine Nash, "When Life Exploded," Dec. 4, 1995, p. 68).

Contrary to the assumptions of early evolutionists, life does not start with only a few rudimentary species. Even those who hold to the traditional interpretation of the fossil record admit that it begins with many life forms similar to those we find today. At the same time, they cannot explain such a vast "explosion" of life forms in such a short amount of geologic time, which evolutionary theory predicts would take far longer.

Unanswered questions

Supporters of evolution have had to back down from the claims of Darwin and others. "Over the decades, evolutionary theorists beginning with Charles Darwin have tried to argue that the appearance of multicelled animals during the Cambrian merely seemed sudden, and in fact had been preceded by a lengthy period of evolution for which the geological record was missing. But this explanation, while it patched over a hole in an otherwise masterly theory, now seems increasingly unsatisfactory" (Time, p. 68).

Again, the facts etched in stone do not match the assumptions and predictions of evolutionary thought. Even if we accept the evolutionists' interpretation of the fossil record, we see life beginning at the lowest levels with complex creatures, with elaborate organs and other features-but with no known ancestors. Life does not start as predicted by evolution, with simple forms gradually changing into more-complex species.

Although toeing the evolutionary line, the Time magazine article admits: "Of course, understanding what made the Cambrian explosion possible doesn't address the larger question of what made it happen so fast. Here scientists delicately slide across data-thin ice, suggesting scenarios that are based on intuition rather than solid evidence" (Time, p. 73).

Evolutionists have been known to pointedly criticize Christians because they don't have scientific proof of miracles recorded in the Bible. Yet here is a supremely important geological event with far-reaching implications for the theory of evolution-but one for which scientists have no explanation. Of course, they must assume that life came from nonlife-in violation of the laws of biogenesis. But don't their fundamental assumptions also amount to faith?

A reasonable explanation is that the life forms found in the Cambrian strata were created by God, who did not work by chance but by design. The fossil record is the only objective evidence we can examine to see whether evolution is true. But, rather than supporting Darwinism, it shows exceedingly complex organisms in what evolutionists interpret as the oldest fossil strata, no intermediate forms between species, little if any change in species over their entire span in the fossil record, and the sudden appearance of new life forms rather than the gradual change expected by Darwin and his followers.

If we look at the evidence objectively, we realize that the creation story in Genesis 1-describing the sudden appearance of life forms-is a credible explanation.



TOPICS: Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; enoughalready; evolution; id; noonecares; pavlovian; postedtowrongforum; science
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
Funny, almost none of what follows was known in Darwin's day.

Stuff which is out there that shouldn't be there if there are no transitionals.

That should, one would think, count as a successful prediction. That is, if Darwin was a charlatan, he was the most incredibly lucky charlatan who ever was or could ever be. 150 years of mind-numbing luck disguising how wrong he was.

Now let me guess the gimmick. The trick is there's no proof of the evidence, and if there were there would be no proof of the proof of the evidence, etc.

Here's what's unreasonable. Some jackass says there simply are no transitionals. Science is looking for them, hasn't found a one, and is wondering where they could be. It's making up excuses for why there aren't any.

If anyone points out that there are plenty of transitionals, that science thinks it has about the fossil record its models of geology and evolution tell it to expect, things like that, we go to the fallback trench. The fallback trench is that there's no proof that any fossil is a transitional because the jackass doesn't accept radiometric dating, or evidence from morphology, or the ability of paleontologists to refrain from Piltdown fakery.

But that's quite a change of story if you think about it. In one version, there could be a transitional and such are to be expected but science just can't find any. Furthermore, science knows this. Furthermore, we are invited to believe that Mr. Jackass would accept a transitional if only science would find one.

The backup version is that all the fossil evidence is invalid, misinterpreted, Piltdown-faked, blah blah blah. But now nothing can ever be a transitional. And now science is deluded in thinking it HAS evidence. The jackass just happens to know better.

The only thing the exchange proves it that the jackass can't tell a single straight story.

241 posted on 07/22/2006 2:58:52 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: PhilipFreneau; quinhon6869
... Nonetheless, it is interesting that the Chimpanzee is the animal with which we share the most DNA commonality. The Whale is most closely related by DNA to the Hippo.

It is also interesting that the dog house shares similarities to the human house. The builder uses some of the same materials and design techniques to build each.

It's not "some of the same materials and design techniques", it's "very detailed matches which always follow the same tree pattern".

What is the "house" analogue of the fact that if a genetic marker is found in the genome of both pigs and cows, it is inevitably also found in the genomes of giraffes, hippos, and whales?

It would be something like " if the upper right-hand quarter of the third nail from the bottom front of both a cape cod and a ranch are rusted, then the third nail from the bottom front of every doghouse is rusted as well."

242 posted on 07/22/2006 3:06:26 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: PhilipFreneau
No offense

None taken.

your idea of a "vast body of consistent data" is laughable, to be kind.

No need to be kind (courtesy suffices), but you might wish to consider being credible.

To do so, you would need to set out what you are trying to affirm in this thread, and the data (presumably unimaginably vast, in comparision to the paltry collection of the last 150 years of biology) that supports your affirmation.

243 posted on 07/22/2006 3:07:38 PM PDT by ToryHeartland (English Football -- no discernable planning whatsoever.)
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To: SirLinksalot
Don't get me wrong, I THINK that Gould believes in Evolution. It may also be true that he still believed to the end of his day that the fossil record GENERALLY supports evolution.

Yes he did. But he also was blunt in characterizing the fossil record as "discontinuous" as opposed to Darwin's claim of "continuous". That left Darwin's theory wide open to attack. Which Gould regretted.

244 posted on 07/22/2006 3:09:29 PM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Fake but Accurate": NY Times)
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To: Between the Lines
The Bible does not say whether the earth revolves around the sun or the sun revolves around the earth. The Bible does talk about the sun rising and setting.

Joshua 10:12-13:

On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."

So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

The literary term for this is phenomenological language; phenomenological language is language that refers to how an event looks to the people that observe it

Creationists would have us believe the Bible is the literal truth, not the phenomenological truth. It the Bible says the sun stood still, then it stood still. And therefore must revolve around the earth.

245 posted on 07/22/2006 3:12:14 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Coyoteman
You should be honest and admit your disagreements are religious, not scientific, in nature.

What is this, the Clinton defense where you accuse your opponent of the wrongs you do yourself? My disagreements have everything to do with being forthright and honest. For instance, I don't call my religious beliefs FACT, where evolutionist call theirs fact when no such fact presents itself.

Evolution, a change from one species to another is just not fact. Why can't you evolutionist admit that you only have evidence that leads you to BELIEVE evolution exist?

246 posted on 07/22/2006 3:12:21 PM PDT by sirchtruth (No one has the RIGHT not to be offended...)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
However, even Darwin himself struggled with the fact that the fossil record failed to support his conclusions. ". . . Why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? . . . Why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?" (Origin of Species, 1958 Masterpieces of Science edition, pp. 136-137).

Darwin was a smart guy - if he was here today he would agree with those of us doubting what's being sold in his name... I see no contradiction.

247 posted on 07/22/2006 3:14:16 PM PDT by GOPJ (Evolution: It's not "one" missing link - ALL the links are missing.)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
But he also was blunt in characterizing the fossil record as "discontinuous" as opposed to Darwin's claim of "continuous".

Darwin did not characterize the fossil record as continuous, or even that it should be. His book, of which you clearly know nothing, makes that clear as a bell.

http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~theobal/PE.html.

"When we see a species first appearing in the middle of any formation, it would be rash in the extreme to infer that it had not elsewhere previously existed. So again, when we find a species disappearing before the last layers have been deposited, it would be equally rash to suppose that it then became extinct. We forget how small the area of Europe is compared with the rest of the world ... when we see a species first appearing in any formation, the probability is that it only then first immigrated into that area." (p. 423)

"... varieties are generally at first local; and that such local varieties do not spread widely and supplant their parent-form until they have been modified and perfected in some considerable degree. According to this view, the chance of discovering in a formation in any one country all the early stages of transition between any two forms is small, for the successive changes are supposed to have been local or confined to some one spot." (pp. 427-428)

"... it might require a long succession of ages to adapt an organism to some new and peculiar line of life, for instance, to fly through the air; and consequently that the transitional forms would often long remain confined to some one region; but that, when this adaptation had once been effected, and a few species had thus acquired a great advantage over other organisms, a comparatively short time would be necessary to produce many divergent forms, which would spread rapidly and widely throughout the world." (p. 433)

You're really stinking up the joint on this thread.
248 posted on 07/22/2006 3:17:30 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: poindexters brother; PhilipFreneau
... To reuse good prior design is a sign of a good engineer...

But the recurrent laryngeal nerve is a sign of bad design. It's as though the wire from the front porch pushbutton to the livingroom chime went into the basement and looped around the furnace.

However, it is an example of the reuse of prior "design". The nerve is perfectly logical in fishes and embryos. See Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes for dozens of examples.

249 posted on 07/22/2006 3:22:22 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: GOPJ
"Darwin was a smart guy -"

A lot smarter than the creationists who are trying to show Darwin was wrong. He would find the dishonest use of out of context quote mining as a very disturbing turn; the creationists of his day were generally a lot more intellectually honest.
250 posted on 07/22/2006 3:22:24 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Creationists would have us believe the Bible is the literal truth, not the phenomenological truth. It the Bible says the sun stood still, then it stood still. And therefore must revolve around the earth.

If you begin with the assumption that there is a God, it is not difficult to extrapolate that to believe that He is able to suspend the passage of time, to part a body of water, or to change water into wine.

If you believe in evolution, you have to start with the assumption that man doesn't natter in this universe! We are just a fleeting moment, and then we will become something else...

Sometimes I think I may agree with them*. But, I don't really, in the end. I believe in an omnipotent God. I guess I should be ignored for my primitive ideas.

You can believe whatever you wish. Just quit peddling this "snake oil" evolution THEORY you worship!

*algore is a good example of de-evolution.

251 posted on 07/22/2006 3:23:22 PM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: pageonetoo

"If you believe in evolution, you have to start with the assumption that man doesn't natter in this universe!"

He may not natter, but there is no assumption he doesn't matter.

"I believe in an omnipotent God."

Most people who accept evolution in the USA are Christians, so your dichotomy is a false one.


252 posted on 07/22/2006 3:25:53 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: Virginia-American

>>>It's not "some of the same materials and design techniques", it's "very detailed matches which always follow the same tree pattern".

What is the "house" analogue of the fact that if a genetic marker is found in the genome of both pigs and cows, it is inevitably also found in the genomes of giraffes, hippos, and whales?

It would be something like " if the upper right-hand quarter of the third nail from the bottom front of both a cape cod and a ranch are rusted, then the third nail from the bottom front of every doghouse is rusted as well."<<<

No, what the analogy implies is that God created the heavens, the earth, and all its host, and did it very efficiently.


253 posted on 07/22/2006 3:26:04 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: andysandmikesmom

"...I know that you and I do not agree on the evolution/creation debate..." ~ andysandmikesmom

I don't know what you think I believe about it, so I don't know if you know that or not. :)

".......I would like to ask you about another TV preacher, who also has a home base church, but is on, at least here in the Pacific Northwest, for 6 hours at nite...I am speaking about Arnold Murray. ..Just curious about your opinion of this Arnold Murray, and his very different beliefs regarding creation/evolution... Thanks in advance."

You're welcome. I'm giving you a lot of info below, so you may want to print out what you find at the links and read them when you have time. Some of the heretical stuff he "preaches" is on the same order as that of Herbert W. Armstrong, and some of it is straight out of his own fantasies.

First some background on what constitutes "heresy":

One of the tasks of apologetics - the branch of theology concerned with the intelligent presentation and defense of the historical Christian faith - is to counter heresy (the opposite of orthodoxy) with sound doctrine.

Charges of heresy are most serious where they involve deviation from the central doctrines of Christianity:

Click here to access the hot links in the commentary below: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/apologetics.html

"Central doctrines" of the Christian faith are those doctrines that make the Christian faith Christian and not something else.

The meaning of the expression "Christian faith" is not like a wax nose, which can be twisted to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content (Jude 3Off-site Link)
Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.
Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19Off-site Link; John 8:24Off-site Link; 1 Cor. 15Off-site Link; Eph. 2:8-10Off-site Link).
Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.
Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree.
Peripheral (i.e. non-essential) doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19Off-site Link) or about the timing of the rapture and still go to heaven, but one cannot deny salvation by grace or the deity of Christ (John 8:24Off-site Link) and be saved.
All Christian denominations -- whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant -- agree on the essential core. The relatively minor disagreements between genuinely Christian denominations, then, cannot be used to argue that there is no objectively recognized core of fundamental doctrine which constitutes the Christian faith.
Source: Alam Gomes, Cult: A Theological Definition, excerpt from "Unmasking The Cults"Off-site Link
*

Once you have the above information, you can use that to make your own determination about Arnold Murray (click here to access the hot links mentioned below): http://www.carm.org/shepherds_chapel.htm

"Arnold Murray denies the Trinity, Christ's physical resurrection, that there was a race of people before Adam, that Eve had sexual relations with Satan to produce Cain, etc. The descendents of Cain are called Kenites and, well,... I guess they view me as a Kenite. At least that is what the followers of Murray have said to me -- in not so nice terms.

The Shepherd's Chapel is a church out of Gravette, Arkansas run by a man named Arnold Murray. Mr. Murray has a television and radio outreach where he spreads his particular doctrines. Many of these doctrines of his are definitely not biblical.

Introduction (hot links)

To students of the Shepherd's Chapel
What is Shepherd's Chapel?
Who is Arnold Murray?
What does Shepherd's Chapel teach?

Issues and Answers
Is Shepherd's Chapel Christian?
Did we exist as souls prior to Adam's creation?
The serpent seed and the Kenites
Shepherd's Chapel and the rapture
An open letter to Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel

*

Here's more:


Spiritual Food... or Slow Poison?
http://reactor-core.org/spiritual-food.html

[snip]

Arnold Murray, Shepherd's Chapel

A ministry which has become popular in some Sabbatarian COG circles in recent times is that of Arnold Murray of "Shepherd's Chapel" which has headquarters in Arkansas. Murray has had a television and radio ministry for almost two decades, but only recently has it moved from late-night "cable access channels" to more prominent distribution across the country at prime times. Because he seems to agree in many areas with the doctrines of some Sabbatarian COGs-including rejection of such holidays as Christmas and Easter, and a brand of "British Israelism-he seems to many like a "sound teacher". His popularity also seems to be related to the fact that his programs feature "in depth" study of the Bible verse by verse, and the fact that he speaks with an air of confident authority in condemning the practices of many religious groups. His delivery style is one of dogmatic insistence, often with unusual harshness, that his "interpretation" of any debatable passages is the only possible interpretation".

This in itself ought to send warning signals to the sincere Bible student. But it is not the only reason we are pointing out the ministry of Arnold Murray as one which may well be dangerous to the spiritual health of those who begin to look to him as a source of spiritual food. Our greater concern is that he does not present openly a number of doctrines which we feel cross the border from questionable to evil. Only when one has been studying his material for some time is one indoctrinated into these more serious matters. This is quite typical of authoritarian religious ministries. Their outreach to the public is often tempered to show a very benign facade on their system of beliefs. And the topics covered in such public outreach are usually their most appealing... not their most bizarre.

So it is with the ministry of Arnold Murray. Those merely listening to his daily or weekly radio or TV program for a short time will not hear a hint of some of his more bizarre teachings-particularly the racist doctrines known as "Satan's Seed", or "Serpent's Seed" (these are not two different doctrines, just two names for the same one) and the "pre-Adamic races". For, just like many branches of the KKK and the Aryan Nations, Murray teaches that only the white northern European ethnic groups are actually descended from Adam. He teaches that all other races are part of a "pre-Adamic" creation, and are not "made in God's image" in the same way Adam was. Nor do they have the promise of inheritance of the same blessings in the after-life as the so-called "White" race. In addition, he also teaches that the group of people viewed by most people as "Jews" today are not at all descended from the Israelite tribe of Judah. Rather, many or most of them are allegedly descended from Cain. And Cain, according to the "Satan's Seed" doctrine, was not the offspring of Adam and Eve, but of a sexual relationship between Eve and the "serpent" in the garden, the Devil himself. Thus Cain and all his descendants, usually dubbed "Kenites" by such teachers, are alleged to have been half-human, half-evil-spirit-being!

This pair of doctrines is quite frequently connected in fringe religious circles with such Biblical doctrines as Sabbath and Holy Day observance. And many who hold these doctrines believe a brand of "British Israelism", and may also use the Hebrew names for the Father and Son, variations on "Yahweh" and "Yahshua". This makes these groups initially appealing to those who may hold such beliefs as important, and who thus look at these groups as likely "fellow believers". In the case of the KKK and the Aryan Nations, the racist beliefs are quite blatantly promoted. But in a number of ministries such as Murray's, they are reserved from introduction until the "student" has become "hooked" on Murray's more general teachings, and begun looking to him as an all-wise authority figure.

Since most of Murray's teaching is done by speaking, rather than in written materials, it is not easy to acquire quotations for inclusion in an article such as this. But there are other groups on the Internet that promote almost identical teachings and who do have much written material posted to explain their beliefs.

Example of Satan's Seed Doctrine

So here is a sample from the website of the "Kalifornia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan". This material is regarding the "Pre-Adamic" races, in particular how they survived the Flood of Noah's time. When the author below uses the word "Identity" he is referring to one of the major branches of the "British Israel " movement. This branch is referred to by both themselves and by critics as the "Identity" movement, sometimes also referred to as "Christian Identity". These are typically the more radical racists, such as the Aryan Nations. The author considers himself and his KKK associates part of that "Identity" movement.

Also, when he refers to "the beasts of the field" he is referring to the "non-white" races, which he alleges to be part of a pre-Adamic creation by God, in some cases tens of thousands of years before Adam. These are just short, disconnected excerpts from a much longer article. [[Our comments in the midst of his writing will be in double brackets like this.]]



Greetings to you in YHVH/Yahshua! In this Bible study, it is my intent to clarify what the Scriptures say on the subject of "man and beast". It is of the utmost importance that we make the distinction between man and beast, and learn how the Scriptures pertain to these two forms of beings, separately, as well as their relationship with each other. Those of you within the Identity community will readily accept what the Bible tells us of this subject, and you may have already found this knowledge on your own. On the other hand, those who do not study the Scriptures in the same detail as those of us whom "hold the Key of David" and call upon the name of our Father Yahweh may not be as receptive to this crucial understanding of the Scriptures. If this be the case for you, then I ask that you put aside the teachings and doctrines of men that you have been taught in the "Establishment Churches", and open your heart and your mind to the Holy Spirit, and Word of Jesus Christ/ Yahshua (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in one being)....

[[ Note that when he says "distinction between man and beast", he is not talking about the distinction between man and four-footed animals... but between the "white" race and the other races! At this point, he goes into a long dissertation on the origin of these "less than human" people. Also notice that he describes himself and his compadres as studying the scriptures in "detail". Of course we should "study the scriptures in detail"-if that means to diligently read all of the Bible and be open to all the spiritual understanding our Father would have us glean from the clear meaning of the written Word. But what this author, and most others like him, including Arnold Murray, means, is to extract doctrines from the scriptures that are never explained in the scriptures at all! They start with an idea, then tear apart the wording of numerous verses, analyze every related meaning of the Greek or Hebrew individual words rather than look at it all in context, and then they assign to the words whatever meaning would best fit their perverted theories! He finally reaches the Noah's flood story-which he claims was not about a worldwide flood.]]

At this point, you may be wondering about the Great Flood. Most pastors and ministers have been taught enough about the Scriptures, and have access to enough resources, to know that this "global flood theory" is based upon a mistranslation, and know full well how that mistranslation occurred. Is this to say that the Word of God is in error and cannot be trusted? God forbid! The error is not in the original divinely inspired text, but rather in the imperfection of the flesh. Hands of flesh translated these Hebrew and Greek documents; fallible flesh. This being said, let us remember that the Word of God is never in error, only the translations of the flesh. These pastors and ministers continue to teach the global flood, with little or no archeological evidence. Watch the Trinity Broadcasting Network, or one of the other fake Christian channels, and observe their "amazing proof", and you will get the idea. There are even some circles of Identity which teach that both the serpent seed, and the beasts of the field from all over the world survived this "global flood" on board the ark. These so-called "Identity Teachers", as it is said in the Scriptures, heap coals upon their own heads...

As we read the following Scriptures, let us bear in mind that there is no evidence that the Adamic race has spread across the entire globe. They dwelt in a single nation, or land. This will be addressed a little later in this study. This verse of Scripture, and others like it are the one's used as primary evidence of a global flood.

Genesis 6; 17: "And behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the 'erets { earth as in dirt or ground, most likely meaning a land, as we will see later} , to destroy all basar { flesh of people} , wherein is the breath of life, from under the heaven; and every thing that is in the 'erets shall die."

In this Adamic flesh is "the breath of life." Let us find the Biblical reference to who has the breath of life. Is it all creatures that draw air into their lungs? This is everything that the Scriptures have to say on what has the breath of life:

Genesis 2: 7: "And YHVH God formed man { 'adam...blushing man} of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and 'adam became a living soul."

[[ Elsewhere in the article he makes a big point that only the "white" race can "blush". ]]

There is no wiggle room here, brothers and sisters. Adam was given the breath of life. Neither the beast of the field, the fowl of the air, nor the fish of the sea were given the breath of life, nor were they made living souls. All Adamic flesh, which alone contains the breath of life, was destroyed. All of it under the heavens, because Yahweh had kept it contained in the 'erets. Yahweh kept it contained in that land. "...AND every thing that is the 'erets shall die." That is right. Every thing that was in this land where 'adam dwelt would perish in the deluge, along with the people that dwelt there. However, it does not say every thing under the heavens.

Genesis 7: 4: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the 'erets forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from of the face of the 'adamah."

That is correct, Yahweh destroyed every living thing that dwelt in that land. There are many verses saying this same thing, and they are all true, for there is no untruth in the Word...only misinterpretations. Allow the Holy Spirit that our Father instilled in each of us, to speak to you on this matter as we delve deeper into this subject...

[[ To clearly reiterate... he is saying that "non-white" people do not have the "breath of life" in them. Then there is the issue of intermarriage of the races. Below is his take on that, in light of the passages in Leviticus about people "lying with animals". Perhaps you thought that this passage was about the perversion known as "bestiality"? Not according to this author!]]

Leviticus 18: 23-24: "Neither shall thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you."

Deuteronomy 23: 2: "A bastard (taken from the Hebrew word "mamzer" which means a mongrel or a half-breed) shall not enter into the congregation of YHVH; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter in to the congregation of YHVH."

"Well I thought Jesus came for everyone, regardless of race!" Certainly some of you are thinking this. Well, Yahshua did come for all men ('adam), but not for the beast of the field. Let us see where man and beast differ in the New Testament...

[[ After some very creative twistings of the New Testament to make his point, he concludes by telling you what happens after death to "men" and the "beasts of the field"... ]]

You see, the spirit of man, though we see it not, shall return to the celestial planes { upward} to be with Yahweh when his flesh tabernacle returns to dust, while the spirit of the beast shall go into the inner earth { downward} , where resides both the grave { Hades} and a chamber known as Paradise. Only Yahweh can say what becomes of the beast there, but only Israel shall reside in the Kingdom of Heaven, for this has been told to us over and over in the Scriptures. May our Father Yahweh/ Yahshua shower His blessings upon you, and may He open your eyes to these truths, if you are of the pure line of Adam.

[[Enough of this evil teaching! But please realize that the same authors teach many other solid Bible principles in ways we would probably find acceptable.]]

Variety of Bad Teachers

The issue of "racism" is dealt with in a number of different ways by individual teachers and ministries and groups that promote this sort of doctrine.

a. Some are blatantly and viciously racist and particularly anti-Semitic to the point of willing to perpetrate violence on any Kenites or sub-humans who get in their way. Some even advocate an all-white separatist nation.

b. Some are blatantly racist-mocking other races (particularly Blacks and Jews) for their inferiority- but condemn violence.

c. Some, including Arnold Murray and Dan Gayman, another teacher who has had some popularity in COG circles in recent years, are not blatantly racist-and even make a big public fuss about their lack of "prejudice" or "hatred" for other races. But the reality behind those statements is interesting, for of course they don't "hate" Blacks or Orientals or Native Americans. They just pity them for not being White! They look down on them as a British aristocrat might look down on his scullery maid. Not with hate or prejudice-just as a natural "inferior".

It is unclear, however, if Murray takes it as far as Gayman's group does. If you wish to attend with Gayman's group, and are not totally and obviously "lily white" you must prove your racial purity. First with the "blue blood" test. Yes, you roll up your sleeve and they check to see if your skin is light enough to see the veins! After that they do an extensive genealogical check on your reputed ancestry, looking for family pictures of any questionable ancestors. They even claim that Hebrews 4:12 ( "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart") is really discussing physical genetics. That is, that the Holy Spirit will supernaturally reveal the true racial identity of anyone who might try to "pass" for white and thus pollute the congregation. For we are not talking here of just "general" divisions among folks who are obviously one race or another. We are talking, as the old saying goes, "one drop of (non-white) blood" being enough to contaminate someone so that they are ineligible for consideration as one of the "chosen".

Almost all such groups that we are aware of have some roots in the British Israelite movement, or at least have borrowed teachings from that movement. And therein is one of the added problems with someone like Murray. Just because they don't teach "racial hatred" among their inner circle, doesn't mean that their area of much wider influence doesn't include many folks who will take the aberrant doctrines they teach regarding these matters and run with it on their own. For this common thread of British Israelism gives their material wide appeal far outside their own little cultic group-without any balancing factor. For instance, Dan Gayman himself does not openly advocate racial hatred and/or violence. But, his writings show up for sale on rabid racist sites on the Internet such as that of the Aryan Nations, where they are used in support of their beliefs. And he certainly doesn't seem to be protesting their inclusion there.

As covered extensively in the May-June 1999 issue of Servants' News, we also have serious concerns about looking to the writings of hyper-charismatic and Word-Faith (see box for definitions) authors for spiritual nourishment. For even when such hyper-charismatic authors as Rick Joyner, Rod Parsley, and John Bevere are teaching about "inspirational" Biblical topics not specifically related to their more bizarre charismatic beliefs, the "doctrinal underpinnings" of their belief system, and those very bizarre beliefs, often color such teaching. But this may not easily be detected by the reader unfamiliar with their other writings. The more of this material one reads without careful consideration of where the author may be headed doctrinally, the easier it is for a reader to get swept along into accepting all of their ideas. If the difficulties were presented by themselves and up-front, they would probably be easily spotted. If an author can get his readers into the "Yes-Response" mode (see box for definition) he can force conclusions that seem reasonable but are really based on logical fallacies.

To Whom Will You Listen?

No author or teacher out there will have the exact same set of beliefs as you. Nor will any have the exact same way of prioritizing the value of various doctrines (for instance, is belief in a particular prophetic scenario part of the "trunk of the tree" of Christianity, or merely a twig?) Thus we all must make some decisions on what level of differences we can accept, what we can overlook as not being a spiritual threat, and what we must insist is totally unacceptable and dangerous to the spiritual health of ourselves and others.

To assist you in this process, we offer six questions which you might ask yourself as you develop your own decisions of to whom you will listen and who you will recommend to others.

1 What do I know about the teacher's ministry as a whole?

a. Do they have just a specialty that they share regularly, or do they have a complete system of theology that they try to proselyte listeners to?

b. Is there any hint that there might be hidden topics or a hidden agenda in the person's teachings?

c. Do they have a list of all of the material they distribute (or a doctrinal statement)?

d. Do the leaders of this ministry fulfill the qualifications of leaders given in 1Timothy 3 and Titus 1?

e. If the ministry appears to have a "good report", is it only from their own mouth or do "outsiders" (especially former members of the group) confirm it also?

2 What is the teacher's approach to his own group versus other church groups. These approaches are common.

a. "I am the one and only true Bible teacher and all other groups are false and the people in them are not converted."

b. "I am the main teacher that God is using. God may be using others that I do not know about, but that is because God has not revealed me to them yet.

c. "I am God's main teacher. There may be converted believers in other groups, but they are being deceived by false teachers. All teachers not in my group are false."

d. "I am God's main teacher. God may be using teachers and brethren in other groups, but they would all be better off if they learned from me. Truly spiritual people would recognize me has God's leader."

e. "God has revealed the truth of a particular doctrine to me, though He is working in many other groups. God does not require them to join my group, but in order to have the true understanding of my doctrine they need to hear or read my teaching."

f. "I am one of many teachers whom God is using. I try to serve and teach the people who God brings to me. I learn from others and hope that others can learn from me."

The higher someone is on the above list, the less likely you should be to listen to them. While people in categories a, b and c may apparently have some truth that few if any other groups do, it is very difficult for a person to learn just "some things" from them. How can a student be "learning truth" from a teacher who believes that the student is unconverted because he has not embraced his entire theological package. Category d teachers are difficult but probably acceptable. Category e and f teachers are obviously much better. When recommending teachers to others, consider their maturity and try to avoid recommending teachers that might cause them to stumble.

3 If a certain teacher has at least one serious "aberrant" teaching (see "definitions" box) in their system of belief, is it...

a. A minor point that they only mention in passing

b. A point that they clearly state is their understanding of the Bible

c. A doctrine that does not determine who is "saved" or in the "true church"

d. A central theme in their teaching

e. A hidden assumption that may color much of their other teaching

f. A topic that they deliberately hide from the uninitiated, but hold as a hidden agenda they ultimately wish to "push.

If a, b and/or c above are true, this teacher may still be a source of wholesome "nutrition" in areas unrelated to the doctrine you consider wrong. If d, e, or f are true, you may still decide you will study their material, but with eyes wide open to the possible unbiblical problems you may encounter. But you may not want to casually recommend such a teacher's material to others without giving a strong warning to the unwary about the specific areas of their teaching you find questionable.

4 If someone were to "take in" much of the material presented by the teacher in question, as their main source of "spiritual nutrition", would the result be merely a partial "deficiency" in some nutrients... or an actual poisoning?

Using the example of the teachings of Chuck Swindoll noted above-if someone were to listen to him on a regular basis, and not do much of their own Bible study, there are certainly many areas of doctrinal understanding that they would be limited in. But the basic teachings about Godly living principles would do them in good stead in their daily life. Such a person would be able to easily have their areas of deficiency improved by additional Bible study and sound teaching from other sources, without having to "unlearn" questionable doctrines. For, as noted above, Swindoll spends almost no time on debatable areas of doctrine but rather on application of simple Biblical principles.

What if, on the other hand, a person were to feed almost totally on the teachings of someone like Arnold Murray, who claims to have almost all the answers to any question you might have about any area of doctrinal understanding? After a certain amount of time they might be so steeped in some of the minutia of some of Murray's more esoteric and non-Biblical doctrines that it could poison them spiritually. Once someone has begun to look to a teacher as a "teacher sent by God", their teachings are no longer isolated bits of information to consider. Their teachings become a "whole package" which dedicated students tend to swallow-poison and all.

To get away from a dogmatic teacher, a "student" must not only be shown evidence against the teacher's "poisonous" doctrines, but they must also be shown that the numerous other doctrines in the "entire package" are either not unique to this teacher, or also in error. When a person has spent a long time at the feet of one teacher, the effort required to "reconsider everything" can be overwhelming.

5 What would the result be in the daily life, and particularly in relationships with others, of a person who would accept the "total package" of that teacher? The teachings that some people are descended from God and others from Satan lead one to believe that salvation is largely a matter of who you are, not what you do, which is contrary to Christ's teaching, and should be easily seen as obvious nonsense. Think about it. Many people who may have uncertain ancestry might be left wondering, "Can I be saved, or am I a 'beast of the field'?" When believers think to help or share the gospel with others, they would always have to try to figure out the person's race so they would know if they are helping a person who can be saved or just another "beast". If one had a severe accident and received a blood transfusion or an organ transplant from someone of the wrong race, one would have to worry if his or her salvation had been altered. On a daily basis, whether one reads a newspaper article or a Bible commentary, one would have to wonder about each author's ancestry-are the words from a "son of God" or a "beast of the field"?

Interracial marriage and uncertain parentage existed when the Bible was written. If only some people were eligible for salvation, determining who is and who is not would be one of the most critical topics covered in the scriptures-but the issue is never clearly covered at all.

Similarly, what would be the end result of the Word-Faith movement if an entire community were successful at it? Who would work hard growing food, serving hamburgers, building houses, fixing appliances, or anything else if all they needed to do is utter the right prayer and God would give them what they needed? Does anyone really believe that God gave us our creative ability and the resources to use it, but He intended mankind not to work but to only pray anytime they needed a house, Honda or hamburger?

It is important to realize that some teachers provide very little help with an individual's daily life. While it is good to see the "big picture" in life and the overall plan of how the Eternal works with His people throughout history, these things of themselves do not help us to "love our neighbor as ourself". Some people spend so much time studying great "spiritual mysteries" and "hidden histories" that they have no time for healthy personal relationships and reaching out to others.

6 What do I know about the level of spiritual maturity, spiritual stability, Biblical knowledge base and intellectual maturity of the person to whom I am thinking about recommending a specific teacher's material?

A spiritually mature, long-time Christian who has good powers of reasoning may be completely capable of handling even the most subtle fallacies in reasoning of a teacher's aberrations. But a new Christian who has not been exposed much to principles of evaluating logical fallacies, and who is not grounded in the fundamental basics of the Christian faith and Bible study may be particularly vulnerable to the techniques of persuasion of someone with a hidden agenda.

Conclusion

We each must take responsibility for our own choices regarding to whom we will look as "teachers" in the area of Biblical understanding. And we must make responsible decisions regarding recommending such teachers to others. It is worth the time for each of us to give some careful consideration to just how we have been making such decisions in the past. And if we see that we may have not thought through the process before, the six questions above may be helpful in making such decisions in the future.

*

Here's more: Shepherd's Chapel / Profile http://www.watchman.org/profile/murraypro.htm


254 posted on 07/22/2006 3:27:29 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: Coyoteman
His rhetorical questions prior to any real hominid finds do not accurately reflect the abundance of the fossils we have now, nor do they negate his theory.

His questions were more than rhetorical. Darwin's characterization of the fossil record was essentially a vast continuum of micro changes over vast periods of time. Not sudden jumps followed by long periods stasis as described by Gould and Eldredge.

Darwin and the fossil hunters who followed believed they would prove the "continuum". They failed.

255 posted on 07/22/2006 3:27:41 PM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Fake but Accurate": NY Times)
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To: PhilipFreneau; Non-Sequitur
...For the record, I seem to recall that Physics and the other branches of science are reasonably testable or observable. Not so for evolution. ...

So when paleontologists used the theory to decide where to dig and what to look for, and found Tiktaalik, that wasn't a test? Why not?

256 posted on 07/22/2006 3:27:53 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: PhilipFreneau

"For the record, I seem to recall that Physics and the other branches of science are reasonably testable or observable. Not so for evolution."

Tell that to those who are saying on this thread that evolution has been tested and failed. It can't be both.


257 posted on 07/22/2006 3:30:12 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
Darwin's characterization of the fossil record was essentially a vast continuum of micro changes over vast periods of time.

Again, you are wrong. Just flat wrong. Please buy a clue.

258 posted on 07/22/2006 3:30:54 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: Matchett-PI

Wow...thanks very much, I will indeed print this out, and have further study of it...there is quite a bit there to digest...so I will print it out, and will be able to read at my leisure...thanks for taking the time to respond...


259 posted on 07/22/2006 3:32:31 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: GOPJ
Darwin was a smart guy - if he was here today he would agree with those of us doubting what's being sold in his name...

Before making your singular assertion, you might be advised to read at least the chapter (the whole book, if you can manage it), from which the article has quote-mined Darwin's Origins. The whole text is conveniently available on line; the passage ripped out of context in the article at the head of this thread and in your post is from Chapter 6: Difficulties of the Theory.

260 posted on 07/22/2006 3:33:44 PM PDT by ToryHeartland (English Football -- no discernable planning whatsoever.)
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