Posted on 07/26/2005 1:20:19 AM PDT by onja
If this isn't appropiate please cut it.
I'm trying to get my facts straight so I don't mind correction if I'm wrong.
Carthage was an important figure in history. They were the heirs of Phoenicia and were the main traders of the Mediterranean. They controlled Northern Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, and Spain. They posed a very real threat to Rome and its allies. So much that the Romans destroyed them with no pity at all in the Third Punic War with absolutely no pretense other than that the Carthaginians were regaining the trade business. I went to my local library found a several bookcases full of Roman history. Most of another with Greek. Many more with all the Mesopotamian cultures, European, a whole shelf of Egyptian, another of Chinese, most of another of Indian. And not a single book on Carthage.
Some mercenaries captured a city in NE Sicily. They butchered the men and enslaved the women. The leader of Syracuse was tired of the mercenaries raiding him so he prepared to attack them. The mercenaries asked for help. Carthage responded but attacked the mercenaries instead. Rome ignored it till Carthage had captured the city. They then made an alliance with the mercenaries, who recently had been the enemy of all, and attacked the Carthaginians. It was a fairly even fight but after 23 years the Carthaginians gave up. They relinquished control of Sicily and paid a lot of money. They were at a loss then to pay their armies so the mercenaries revolted. In the chaos Rome took Sardinia and Carthage couldn’t stop them.
Seeking to regain wealth they conquered most of Spain. Spain was divided between the two and Carthage was told to not bear arms above a certain river. Sarguntum was well below that mark so Rome had no legal right there or even having an alliance there. Also the Sarguntums had attacked Carthage’s allies and massacred their own pro-Carthage citizens. So, rightly, Hannibal attacked and captured the city. The Romans demanded Hannibal and of course they didn’t get him and declared war. Hannibal crossed the mountains, allied with Gaul, and defeated many armies (Cannae anyone?). He lost because he had planned to have Northern Roman peoples to side with him. They would have but they hated Gauls. Rome, cunningly, invaded Carthage, won ONE battle, and so won the war. Carthage lost Spain, Hannibal, and all their remaining wealth.
Rome was very harsh with Carthage. They were not allowed to declare war or do almost anything. But, miracle it is, they became wealthy again and paid back the debt. Still, militarily they were by no means a threat. The Numidians attacked Carthage. Carthage tried (Unsuccessfully)to defend themselves and Rome told them to pay a lot more money and declared war. After pleading and diplomacy they were told to send 300 noblemen’s children as hostages and they would have peace. They did. The Romans ignored them and landed at the traitorous city of Utica. They were told they would stop if they gave up their weapons. They did and Rome ignored them again. The entire city worked hard and built new weapons soon. Slaves were freed and enthusiastically fought. The city of Carthage resisted the siege and general attack for three years. The Romans then took it after 6 days of harsh fighting. The Carthaginians fought bravely. The very last stand was made though by Roman deserters who fought to the death. Out of over 700,000 only 50,000 survived. Many of these were enslaved. The city was burned for 10 days. The harbor was destroyed. The fields sown with salt.
That's a pretty cool poem.
What does that have to do with this thread? The photographer
told me that those four models
got into a fight
at the photo shoot
about whether Carthage or
Rome was the most vile.
The girls finally
had a big pillow fight and
ripped their lingerie
before agreeing
to disagree. Rome. Carthage.
It's a hot topic!
What doesn't it have to do with this and every other thread?
I have heard recently that the cartheginians were caananite and not phoenician. Evidence I've heard given were the caananites practices of child sacrifice corresponded to the Cartheginian practices of child sacrifice. also their gods were very similiar.
Why didn't the French have the right to aid their Indian allies against their English enemy?
And who decides what "rights" are between nations anyway, other than Victory?
Thanks!!!
At least they had been a Phoenician colony till Phoenicia fell.
The Spanish had made no agreement so they were free to fight while Carthage and Rome had made an agreement between each other. Rome messed up their agreement with Carthage. I was wrong about the Indians though. My apologies.
From K. Kris Hirst,
Your Guide to Archaeology.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/cterms/g/canaan.htm
Definition: Canaan is the name of a Bronze Age culture and country in what is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Jordan, and the southern portions of Syria and Lebanon. The area was first occupied about 3300 BC, evidence shows occupation of the vicinity up to 550 BC, including a 300 year period of Egyptian rule. Just to be confusing, the Greeks called the eastern Canaanites Phoenicians and the Romans called the western Canaanites Punic. City states of Phoenicia included Ugarit, Aradus, Tripoli, Batrun, Byblos, Beirut, Sidon, and Tyre.
Also Known As: Palestine, Eretz-Israel, Bilad es-Shem, Djahy; also Phoenicia (Greek), Punic (Roman), Kinahna (Akkadian)
Examples: Archaeological sites include: Tel Beth Shean, Tel Beth Shemesh, Sarepta, Tell es-Sa'idiyeh. Tyre was a Phoenician capital, and colonies included Cadiz (Spain) and Carthage (Tunisia)
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in 589 Solomon's Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians. The reason given by Jeremiah for the destruction of the temple and the exile of the people was that the old Hebrews had abandoned their God and adopted the abominable practices of their canaanite neighbors: ie child sacrifice in the vally of hinnom (not far from Jerusalem.)
///////////////
Jeremiah 7:30-32 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
The Valley of Slaughter
30 " 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
It has EVERYTHING to do with this thread because.....
allworkandnoplaymakesjackadullboyallworkandnoplaymakes
jackadullboyallworkandnoplaymakesjackadullboyallworkand
noplaymakesjackadullboyallworkandnoplaymakesjackadullboy
allworkandnoplaymakesjackadullboy.......
for further reading on the Phoenician Canaanites go to askjeeves
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/c/ca/canaan.htm
Thanks. That's really interesting. Never knew Phoenicians and Carthaginians were canaanites.
I prefer original sources to a description in order to make up my mind.
Is there a video of this fight over Carthage and Rome that I might access?
Whether or not the video is available, I'm sure there must be some still of the wanton destruction of pillows and lingere in the aftermath.
I, for one, am content with the sure knowledge that the model on the far right prevailed as the defender of Rome and the traditions of modern civilization.
thanks...but please don't put me on the carthage ping list. but you can put me on the lingerie ping list. ;)
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For world history buffs, I've been told SmackDown often re-stages old wars . . . |
The US and Russia made an agreement not to build and deploy ABM.
America unilaterally abrogated the agreement because it was in their perceived best interest to do so.
America was in the Roman role here.
So, for that matter, is any person who asks another for a divorce.
It is not nice to break contracts.
And whoever breaks a contract first is the bad guy, I suppose.
Joshua did tell the fellow who stole Canaanite goods to come forward and speak and have no fear.
And then he burnt him and his family.
I gather from this tale that sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Re Smackdown and old wars: Sorta like re-enactors, right?
I wouldn't want to go to something that wasn't historically and politically correct.
gracias.
LOL!
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