Posted on 12/03/2015 11:45:01 PM PST by walford
I am not a Christian nor a Jew, and thus do not have a dog in this fight between them and Muslims on a theological level. From the perspective of an outsider, I offer my views on Islam in its current form and how non-believers should respond to its spread into our homelands:
Those who worship the God of Abraham [Jews, Christians and Muslims] have this history in common: Theological Exclusivism [my God is the only God and my religion is the only valid religion].
Jews do not proselytize and are not obligated to spread their faith. Christians and Muslims are -- and both have histories that involve conversion-by-the-sword on a widespread, systematic basis.
The essential difference is that Christendom abandoned this method of spreading the Good Word centuries ago, while the Islamic World has an unbroken record of wholesale slaughter on a regular basis that continues to the present.
Why?
My interpretation, based upon history and theology, is that Christianity underwent a Reformation, which affected the Western World socially and politically as well as theologically. No longer did political leaders hold power by Divine Right. No longer were Christians permitted to kill in the name of God or conquer and plunder the non-believer.
This development into Theological Pluralism [there are many paths to God] benefited Christians as well as people they subsequently encountered.
Islam has not undergone such a Reformation and hence remains socially, politically and theologically in an infantile stage. As such, unreformed Islam is incompatible with Western civilization; at its core, Mohammedanism is not willing to live in peace with those of other faiths. Hence, in practice, Islam is unchanged at being first and foremost a violent, expansionist political ideology.
The majority of Muslims do not perpetrate atrocities, but the fact is, mass-murder for religious reasons is almost entirely perpetrated by those who hold that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is His Messenger.
If Muslims want to be welcomed and not be subject to justifiable suspicion, it is incumbent upon them to marginalize, and then eliminate the perpetrators of terror within their ranks. Making excuses and claiming victimhood isn't going to cut it.
The Pre-Islamic Middle East had a long and admirable history of being a natural hub for commerce, technology, science, hospitality and the exchange of ideas. If the Islamic World were resolved to live in peace with non-believers and pursue being once again the natural hub it once was, there is a future for them and us all.
Until and unless such a Reformation takes place within the Islamic World, it is up to non-Muslims to at the very least contain its spread from outside its traditional places of origin.
As we have seen repeatedly, it is suicide to invite into our homelands those who do not believe in assimilation and consider themselves entitled to impose their way of life upon others by force, sparing no quarter to women and children.
If the West, in its fashionable self-loathing, continues to surrender to a culture that is backward in every way, civilization itself is at peril.
I would suggest you read the Koran and what it exhorts believers to do. A good Moslem is not a peaceful one.
Hmmm... who forgets that?
Obviously the author of that article we were discussing.
I’m with you, TE.
“consider whether Islam can be reformed or not”
There have been many variations of Islam throughout the centuries, and some have been relatively easy to live with. Often, it is a reflection of the political leadership, but different doctrines and rules of interpretation make a big difference as well.
A major factor, is what is accepted as “Scripture” - that is to say, what is accepted as the basis to be interpreted. All muslims accept the Koran, and most accept the Hadith (the sayings and doings of muhammad and his companions).
The movement closest to what modern society would accept, is the “Koran only” school of thought which does not take muhammad’s example as a basis for law. When you accept muhammad’s behavior as a role model, or indeed as scripture, you end up with atrocities.
To really reform islam, you have to be able to distance yourself from the bad actions or example that muhammad set. You have to be able to say that such an example was just for a particular person in a particular situation, in a very different time - not an eternal standard for all. You have to objective morality, beyond just loyalty to the gang and its internal discipline (if it advanced muhammad’s power, he typically considered moral to kill, steal, rape, enslave, lie - whatever).
The “koran only” school is a tiny minority though - kind of a fringe academic theory - with its main proponents having been famously executed for their belief.
What you are left with (on the Sunni side) are the four “fiqh” - the four main schools for interpreting islam and developing sharia (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, and Hanbali). Of the four, the smallest, but the most problematic is the Hanbali interpretation of the Saudis, Wahabbis, al Quaeda, ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, Boko Haram, and our worst Sunni extremists (so called salafists or takfiris).
What makes the Hanbali fiqh so particularly destructive is its extraordinarily rigid and mindless literal reading of a certain set of source documents (Quaran, Hadith, and a small slice time around the time of the first muslims), with rules of interpretation that force outcomes of genocide, atrocity and world conquest.
Hanbali insists on only pure literal reading of the text - no reasoning or moral judgement of any kind is allowed, based on the assumption that the texts are perfectly divine in origin, and that human intellect is inherently inferior.
Then, since there are many conflicts inherent in the supposedly perfect texts, they adopt the arbitrary rule that whatever comes later supersedes whatever went earlier. So all of muhammad’s early attempts to get along with other groups, and to tempt new followers with appealing ideas, were superseded by his later ruthless totalitarian repression and megalomaniacal ambitions. God apparently changed his mid several times during that small slice of time, and then never again, according to their simple-minded thinking. Muhammad’s final position was that he was commanded by allah to fight infidels until all accept that only God is allah and that muhammad is his (penultimate/final) prophet - which is where using Hanbali rules will always end up - endless struggle to impose a global totalitarian rule.
Hanbali also adopts muhammad as the best possible human role model, and so uses his example to fill in any area not specifically spelled out in the Koran. He is of course, a horrible role model, and disastrous results follow from that arbitrary rule. Handling disagreements when bound by such rules ultimately boils down to simply “Shut up or I’ll kill you”.
What islam needs to reform is to make reasonable judgements as to objective moral standards an emphasis on deliberate development of good character that accords with objective morality - rather than slavish and unthinking adherence to the whims of a despot long since dead as the highest (indeed only) measure of goodness. They need to be able to interpret scripture as guidance to inform moral judgement, rather than rigid rules that supersede morality.
It’s unfortunate, but sometimes I believe that only at the Judgement will most understand what Christianity was all about. All of Europe or All of America or all of some other place might say they are Christian but that usually means they give mental assent to the teachings of Christ (at best) but most all do not walk the walk. No one should have to explain that many want to USE Christianity for their own purposes - whether they be kings and politicians or Joe Snott the rag man’s son.
Christianity is a Jewish religion. The first Christians were Jews (remember?). Christianity is basically God’s new covenant with the Jews. The Church has no covenant. The Church has not “replaced” Israel as many ignorants have insisted. God only made a covenant with the Jews. Salvation is of the Jews. The Jews, contrary to Walford, were to evangelize the nations. They failed at that and many other things. But don’t get smug, they were an example to the world of how God deals with us individually and how he deals with nations. We are to learn from their mistakes.
After the cross and resurrection of Christ, Gentiles (non-jews) are grafted in to the linage of Abraham if they show the kind of faith that Abraham demonstrated (a trust in God’s goodness and unequalled power). Christ taught that “no one comes to the Father but by me.”No one comes unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that Faith is a gift, that the way is “narrow and few there be that find it.” When it comes to true believers, I wouldn’t look for crowds, let alone nations. Christ’s call is for disciples, not decisions and not mental assent as to His truth claims. It is a call to lay down your life. It is a call to do Christ’s bidding and to burn out for him with little thought to yourself. The self-life is, and will continue to be, the most popular life style for selfish, self-centered, entitled fallen human beings that think they can have the world and Jesus, too. To find true Christianity, you have to go back before the reformation, before Aquinas, before Constantine. You have to go back to the book of Acts and the rest of the New Testament.
When a nation acknowledges the truth claims of Christ and the Bible and bases their laws on those ideas, yes, things generally may go better for that nation. It does have a sanctifying effect on their culture. I think that was something the Founders of this nation strove to achieve. The closer we came to that the better we were. In spite of all our poor attempts, at least we knew the direction to a better country and culture. For now, we live in the enemy’s playground - in a fallen and cursed world. A true Christian nation will have to wait for the Kingdom of Christ.
It’s all right here in the book of murder and mayhem, the Koran. Koran is filled (80-90%) with hate for Christians, Jews and blacks. It instructs to kill and conquer them and take their lands and possessions. Muslims believe the Koran to be the perfect word of their god, Allah.
These are the verses that the Islamist terrorists us to justify their murders:
THE KORAN INSTRUCTS MUSLIMS TO FIGHT CHRISTIANS, JEWS AND CONQUER THE WORLD FOR ISLAM:
(The following are only a few of the verses commanding Muslims to fight)
WARFARE IS ORDAINED FOR YOU, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. (2.216)
“AND FIGHT THEM UNTIL THERE IS NO PERSECUTION , AND RELIGION SHALL BE ONLY FOR ALLAH 2:193
If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom. 9:39
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Fight those among the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] ... who do not profess the true religion, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. (9.29)
ISLAM IS THE MOST RACIST, BIGOTED RELIGION, AND THE KORAN IS FILLED WITH HATE FOR ALL OTHER THAN MUSLIMS:
no one tells the African-Americans that it was the Arab Muslims who captured them and sold them as slaves, neither the fact that in Arabic the word for black and slave is the same, “Abed.â€
(It is taught in textbooks in some Muslims countries today that Christians are monkeys and Jews are pigs)
Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
Whoever says Muhammad was black must be killed…(Ash-Shifa, Tr. Aisha Abdarrahman, 2004)
Disbelievers’ faces will be black on the judgment day and they will receive God’s penalty...3:106 White faces on the judgment day will receive God’s mercy...3:107
Allah will reward the doers of good with paradise and much more, their faces will be radiant-stained; they will never be humiliated. The unbelievers’ faces will be turned dark…10:26-27
Ahmad ibn Abi Sulayman, the companion of Sahnun said, “Anyone who says that the Prophet was black should be killed. (ibid, p.375)
In one Hadith, Mohammed referred to Blacks as Raisn Heads (Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1, no. 662 and vol. 9, no. 256), and as pug nosed slaves in Sahih Moslem vol. 9 pages 46 and 47.
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis.9:34
Jesus was not the Son of God. Those who say he was (Christians) are going to hell. 19:35-37
Scourge adulteresses with 100 stripes. Do not show them any pity. Have a party of believers watch the punishment. 24:2
EVIL-CRUELTY IN THE KORAN
Mutilaton of women?
That this occurred also among Muslims is shown by the following hadith:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251)
Those who die fighting for Allah will go to heaven. 3:195 Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33 The transgressors will roast in the Fire and be forced to drink boiling liquids followed by ice cold drinks. 38:55-9
THE KORAN PROMISES COUNTRIES TO CONQUER AND THE SPOILS THERIN:
Sura 33 “And he bequeathed to you their lands, their homes and their possessions, together with land you have never trodden” (33.27) .
MUSLIMS ARE INSTRUCTED IN THE KORAN TO BE STILL UNTIL THEY HAVE THE NUMBERS IN THE COUNTRIES THEY HAVE INVADED:
“Be patient with unbelievers until you have strength” (86.17).
THE KORAN INSTRUCTS MUSLIMS TO BE DECEPTIVE: Quran 3:28 Don’t have unbelieving friends unless it is to deceive them. Remember the final goal is to Allah.
SHARIA LAW MUST RULE THE WORLD
Allah’s law (Sharia) is binding to all…4:135
Allah accepts only Sharia and no other laws…7:29, 57:25
Allah is the Law-giver; He appointed Muhammad to implement the only correct laws (Sharia laws)…45:18
Quran 9:33 ISLAM WILL PREVAIL OVER ALL RELIGIONS
THE FOUNDER OF CAIR HAS TOLD US PLAINLY OF ISLAM’S OBJECTIVE IN AMERICA:
“ISLAM ISN’T IN AMERICA TO BE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER FAITH, BUT TO BECOME DOMINANT. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth. Everthing we need to know is in the Koran. We don’t need to look somewhere else.”
OMAR M. AHMAD, CHAIRMAN OF CAIR, the mainsteam Muslim advocacy group.
_______________________
Every “moderate†Muslim is a potential terrorist. The belief in Islam is like a tank of gasoline. It looks innocuous, until it meets the fire. For a “moderate†Muslim to become a murderous jihadist, all it takes is a spark of faith.
Ali Sina
_________________
Islam is built on submission to Allah who follows no rules and has no logic -- humans are to obey with no sense of love or of being allah's children.
This is a fundamental difference.
Example -- you cannot remove the expansionism from communism. When that was done, as in Kerala or West Bengal, communism was gutted and destroyed.
the same way with Islam. At the core, this is a dangerous philosophy.
But doesn’t the Koran say people with coexist bumper stickers will be spared? /Sarcasm
“Islam is unchanged at being first and foremost a violent, expansionist political ideology. “
This is the only sentence you need to read in this article.
I’m not rich but I would be happy to support every person murdered by Jesus Christ forever. I could not afford a cup of water for every person killed by muhammad himself.
The author has no idea what they’re talking about.
“...whether we should “hate” all Muslims...”
That’s up to the individual to decide and I think it’s beside the point: What to do with violent Islam?
Nothing politically acceptable is available that would be the slightest bit effective.
The moment anyone - muslims in particular due to the profile of a terrorist — ventures a hair’s width into the realm of terrorism, prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. I don’t think we do that today. The blind-sheikh connected to the ‘93 WTC bombings should have executed and wasn’t. Now he serves (as has already happened) as an excuse for subsequent terrorist acts to try and free him, swap him for hostages, whatever. So we (as a society) have yet to take terrorism as seriously as it deserves.
Martyr terrorists immediately. Do not leave them on the table as a bargaining chip, which is how other terrorists will view them.
Now, although I identify as Christian, I could not honestly claim to be a “good Christian”. I’m certainly not Jesus or even “Jesus Like”. So *personally* I would have no qualms or moral issues dropping a tactical nuke on all muslim holy sites, beginning with mecca and medina. And just to clean out the pantry of any old stuff we have lying around, I’d repeat the strikes with anything less than 20kt yield for a few random cycles until the local environments were so polluted and irradiated, nothing - absolutely nothing - could survive for a looooong time. The only sites I would spare would be those within the boundaries of Israel and I would urge/support Israel to manage access to those site strictly and return them to full Jewish control.
That would be a good start. And it will never happen. So we had better get used to terrorists attacks in the news and be personally prepared to defend ourselves at all times, even at home.
But that’s just me and I can be a bit of an a-hole when it comes to terrorists.
Whatever the most effective answer(s) proves to be - I’m pretty darned confident it will not be politically correct and the liberal left will be adamantly against it.
I stopped right there. The god the Muslims worship is not the God of Israel. Islam is another form of satanism.
“Those who worship the God of Abraham [Jews, Christians and Muslims] have this history in common: Theological Exclusivism [my God is the only God and my religion is the only valid religion].”
It is not true that Muslims worship the God of Creation Whom Jews and Christians worship. Simply not true.
Saying that Muslims worship the God of Abraham flies in the face of their Koran which states that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the son of Abraham and Sarah. This is a lie.
Muslims worship Allah, a false god as false as Baal and Moloch and which like those two, demands human sacrifice (slaying of infidels). Allah demands that Muslims kill; God asks his worshippers to love their neighbors.
There are not “three Abrahamic religions” as Muslims demand that we accept, there are only two.
I will make my point even clearer than that:
Nuke Makkah NOW!
The differentiating factor between 'sword methods' is that neither Jesus Christ nor His Apostles ever taught that the faith should be spread using the sword and, in fact, taught the exact opposite. Our Lord taught us to love our enemies and to pray for those that would persecute us. Mohammed insisted that his followers take up the sword to impose islam on the world.
Precisely.
If you don't think you have a dog in this fight you're blind!
Islam can not undergo such a reformation. At it's heart islam is a violent, bloodthirsty, misogynistic, triumphalist ideology. The kind of reformation that would make islam compatible with the modern world would require that the koran and hadith and other 'holy' teachings be abandoned and that won't happen. when isis beheads their prisoners they are emulating their great prophet and treating their captives exactly as he treated his and doing what he commands. When suicide bombers blow up Jews and Christians they're not perverting their religion. They're being faithful to it's teachings. They are not twisting anything out of context or violating any teaching of their faith. That's the problem.
It seems that the main theme to the comments here is to ignore my analysis of Islam, get defensive about Christianity as was practiced centuries ago and go into why Muslims do not worship the same God [which, whether true or not, is irrelevant to the political point about how to respond to the expansion of Islam into Western homelands] and that Islam cannot be reformed.
OK, so then what? For my part, if that is the case, then I fall back upon my option of containment, keeping non-peaceful Muslims out of Western homelands — and removing those who are already here.
As I stated earlier, starting when Constantine converted to Christianity in the 4th century, there is considerable political advantage to practitioners of a religion in which theirs is the only God and theirs is the only “proper” way to worship. It not only permits, but obliges the faithful to impose their religion on others by force of arms if necessary; saving souls for the infinite afterlife is far more important than saving finite lives.
For entire nations in the Christian and Islamic past, theological exclusivism has been interpreted as providing Divine Sanction for plunder and conquest.
Most Pagans believe that the Almighty will appear to a given tribe at a given time in a form [or forms] that they would accept as Divine. Such people will find themselves overwhelmed by True Believers who will not peacefully abide any other faith or Gods.
Islam in its current form takes it beyond this and will also not live in peace with other faiths that supposedly worship the same God — and even different sects within their own faith. Hence, nobody victimizes Muslims more than other Muslims.
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