Posted on 05/24/2011 4:07:08 PM PDT by ken5050
As we enter the GOP primary season, I'm starting to notice more and more an annoying trend here in FR. It seems as though everytime there's an article, or someone posts a comment about Romney, either pro or con, it nearly always devolves into an extended, and acrimonious discussion about the Mormon faith. Those who defend it, and those who, for whatever reasons, can't abide it, both sides seem determined to wage an "end of times" batte on all the FR threads. Frankly, I'm tired of it, and just wish it would stop. I think that probably 99% of others here feel the same way.
Having some comprehension issues eh? Let me explain it again. As a liberal organization the WCC has a WIDE set of arms regarding the varieties of Christianity it (and its members) define AS Christian. Had you read the link closely - you would have noted that they included denominations that were NOT members of the WCC (hint hint). Notice those who were not listed - mormons, JW, christian science, etc - all who's fundamental doctrines are clearly opposite of even the very liberal core of the WCC.
A simple yes or no was requested ...
I am still waiting for that link ...
Reading things can be hard, even with a link was provided. You will need to cut and paste this additional link - http://www.ncccusa.org/members/ Take the time to read the list. Who is absent? And as my earlier link points out, they deal with mormons on a different basis.
You ducked the request again. Thank you. I am still waiting for the link that says they are not Christian ...
Thanks ansel, reading skills were not lost to you.
I have a ton more links
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Of course you dfo
Its good PR
Even Romney got in the act in a faky staged photo for his campaign in 2008
But dont worry
Not one hair was hurt during snapping
When I was a kid (Southern Baptist), a marriage to a Methodist was considered an interfaith marriage!
Ah, I see you play the move the goal posts game. Your first was a challenge whether or not WCC recognized mormonism as Christian - it currently doesn't. It does list denominations it considers to be Christian, both those who are members and those who aren't. You received your answer, now you want a yes or no reply.
I think you need to rethink your premise so you can put forth a respectable question then.
The fact that you don't recognize a link doesn't surprise me at this stage of your bleats. Please, quit embarrassing yourself with such continued requests in light of the fact that others have already recognized that they have been given and state just what I've said.
The broadest forums of Christian organizations don't recognize mormons as Christian. The individual denominations also don't recognize mormonism's claim to Christianity either.
But that is not surprising - since mormonism doesn't Christianity is "Christian" either.
Are you getting the picture, or do I need to open another box of crayons for your?
This could be an interesting answer.Your response is so lightweight as to be a joke and embarrassing to you.
So, confer amongst yourselves and tell me just what the "Christian" position is on how Mary became pregnant with Jesus, and was still a virgin.
Remember, we need detailed biological explanations here not just "the holy Ghost did it".
Then explain how Jesus' DNA worked out (A male with only female parent)
Then explain how Jesus is biologically both God and Man.
Then explain how every miracle worked by Jesus was done.
Both of those churches require Mormons to be baptised into the Christian faith.
Do I think you have a dirty mind for digging here? Yes.
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Do I think the mormons who made up this dirt about the Virgin Mary have dirty minds Yes
Joey Smith, Briggy Young Heber C Kimball, Brucie Packer were all ignorant unGodly guys who had no faith in the God o9f the Christian Bible
In order to belittle the Christian God they designed mormon doctrines that went against the 10 Commandments
Where God said You shall not commit adultery, they said a guy needed to have more than one wife to get into the mormon after life
Where God said Mary knew no man, the mormons said Yeah but she knew a mormon god Yuck Yuck
Now you say the author of such ideas would have a dirty mind
I agree
Joey Smith was a vile dirty minded animal who after being ex=communicated from a Christian Church for teaching blasphemy, invented his own playboy religion 2 weeks later...
No dirty deed was too evil for Joey Smith to include in his religion
He wanted women, wine and song and he got them
Joey Smith dreamed up an unGodly set of doctrines in oreder to spit in the face of the God of the Christian Bible
It is part and parcel of the decadence of his mind that he accused the mormon god of having sex with his own “daughter”
It must have been amusing to Joey Smith when the loval population were shocked and disgusted with his proclamations
No wonder they want ed him and his band of cutthroats away form their daughters
It was not unusual in those days to run of malcontents which is all Joey Smith and his Danites were
Until a few months ago mormons were defending their doctrine of sex between the mormon god and Mary
Now it seems theres been a change of oreders and the mormons in these threads appear to have been told to claim that Joey Smith et al never said that at all
The Morg Ministry of Truth in full STOP THE PRESSES
The dirty minds belong to the original mormon leaders and those who “sustain” them
I report you redraft
You were addressing me, and bad mouthing JR without the FR courtesy ping to JR. You for one have been very touch about not being pinged yourself when being spoken of. Or haven't you learned that since 2003?
his old Canard again? So Mormons think the oneness of God is defined differently than you do, so you call us polytheistic.
Think - apparently any semblance of intellectual integrity has left you long ago du. The mormon definition of the "oneness of God" is vastly different from that of Christianity. Mormons themselves admit that they have at least three 'gods' (http://www.mormonchurch.com/668/are-mormons-polytheists) which is the fundamental definition of polytheism. So please don't disgrace your self further with lying about that.
I link to the whole original article (unlike some) and allow others to check my work, I am not surprised when you disagree with my reading, I expect that, but I keep expecting you to admit that I have a point because I do and you just won't even admit what's staring you in the face.
I've gone over that section with you time and again. It is dishonest to try to superimpose MORMON definitions and word usage to the CATHOLIC Encyclopedia because the definitions and word usages ARE NOT THE SAME. Your tactic is to repeat a lie long enough that people come to believe it. I'm sure my Catholic brothers will come to the same conclusions as I have on your application of that link because we have a common understanding of the Trinity. I'm surprised JR lets you waste storage space for you profile with this garbage you have there attacking Christianity.
The man made doctrine of the Trinity has serious problems to anyone who wants to look and putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "it's not true", just won't make them go away.
As I've read elsewhere "Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored." In your case, your facts are fiction and have continually been shown to be out of touch with reality - and morphing the passages in the Catholic encyclopedia into something they are not only proves it.
The Bible is rife with The "Gods" creating Adam and Eve. .
LOL, you continue to amaze me with your biblical ignorance DU.
Jesus speaking of God in the third person and during the Great Intercessory
As the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate - you find that odd. It is accepted within the definition of the Trinity du(h) which you reject.
he draws the analogy of the oneness of the apostles and his oneness with God.
Since the apostles could not be part of the Trinity except in the 'oneness' of purpose - this makes fine sense within the doctrine. But typical mormon - context is for real people - and cherry picked verses out of context with the rest of Jesus' saying and those of the apostles seem to abandon you all the time. For your bible study -
Joh 10:30* I and my Father are one.
Ontology versus economy du
Uh, yes, but communion was closed ~ initially you had to be a member of that congregation to participate. They’ve lightened up somewhat but so far I haven’t heard of any DofC church having folks troop to the front like they were Catholics or Methodists.
You’d really need to practice a lot to become a Presbyterian these days ~ just keeping track of the church organization names they use has become a chore ~ and the gay guys, all over the place, OH NOS.
Just step over the bodies eh!
Yes, the Mormons come in. They knock on doors. Several of us (and that includes some Moslems) keep our eyes open so they don't get into any trouble.
Used to be the last guy they'd see was the Mullah from Pakistan. He'd invite them in for tea ~ and talk ~ he bagged one once!
Tell us, DU, re: "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...
...Aren't you, too, just "another" Kolobian neighborhood spirit-kid like Jesus who's arrived in the flesh?
And your Mormon brothers and sisters, too?
And the rest of us as well?
Aren't we all simply Mormon spirits arriving in the flesh from the same pre-existent Mormon mom or moms there?
Is the only uniqueness of that "arrival" then, DU, that Jesus' mom remained a virgin and the rest of ours didn't? Anything else unique 'bout Jesus' spirit coming in the flesh than ours, per Mormonism?
ALL: You see this is exactly where you need to be careful re: the craftiness of Mormonism. For example, Mormons don't downplay Jesus' eternality...what they do is just upgrade the rest of us to His level from the get-go! (Just as they attempt to upgrade all true-believing Mormons to gods plural!)
Joseph Smith claimed in D&C 93:29,33 that all spirits & intelligences -- you, me & Jesus -- have always existed. It might sound "Christian" for the Mormon to say, "I believe Jesus is eternal." But unless you break that down, the "craft" being tossed atcha will getcha.
Mormons say in the Book of Abraham (a Mormon sacred book) that the Mormon god is near a star Kolob. So when a Mormon like DU says Jesus is come in the flesh, 'tis not exactly a unique "flight pattern" for spirits from that Kolobian neighborhood to make their way to planet Earth. Mormons say that's how all -- or almost all -- humans got here. Their spirits took flight from there into the wombs of humans.
The debate among Mormon leaders through the years on this subject is really whether this same spirit flight pattern applied to Jesus or not. DU insists that Jesus birth was indeed virgin-unique (post #340); Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie at times has insisted strongly that it was not...that Jesus is "literally" the Son of God in a unique way that doesn't apply to His supposed "spirit brothers" in Kolob Heights.
And what "unique" way was that: That a physical god of flesh and bones came down and had sex with Mary, resulting in Jesus' birth.
Note, this topic has in part been discussed on this thread...but I've only seen one quote from below placed in that discussion. The topic of whether Mormons think Jesus was born from a virgin is covered in in previous thread posts: Syncro (#94, #140,), SeeSac (#120, #132, #146), Graybeard58 (#123, #131), DU (#337, #338, #340, #341, #490, #542), Tennessee Nana (#366, #500), Szonian (#461), Ejonesie22 (#464), etc.
ALL: Check DU's comments from 337, 338, 340, 341, 490 vs. below:
LDS leaders trying to 'play it both ways' re: describing Mary as a virgin:
* Example: LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie.
* Some clearly implied that she wasn’t (Brigham Young)
Example of LDS saying Mary was a virgin: "Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 822. [A CARM writer’s comment to this was: Let them proclaim it. But quite honestly, I fail to see how the Mormon people can assert that Mary remained a virgin in light of this evidence from their prophets and apostles. I see them saying two different things and backpedaling trying to sound Christian.]
Let’s deal with each of those descriptions separately, shall we?
”Literal”:
”The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44)
“…Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (McConkie Mormon Doctrine, p. 742, 1966)
Did ya'll catch the conception part here being discussed as part of a “normal and natural course of events” process? Was McConkie just making that up out of thin air? No. He was simply repeating what earlier LDS “prophets” have said about this “natural process”:
...same physical sense that any other man begets a child...:
Brigham Young:
“God…created man [as spirit children], as we create our children: for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be.” Journal of Discourses (JoD), vol. 11, p. 122
(OK, Young's quote here = absolute statement that God only has one means of creation, and that the spirit, Jesus, was first “created” in heaven through the same process “as we create our children”).
“The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (JoD vol. 8, p. 115)
(Of course, if any poster wants to tell us that they were begotten of their fathers in some other manner that their fathers who ”partook of flesh and blood”--anything other than what Young called a “natural action”--we’ve got listening ears)
“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it.” (JoD, vol. 4, p. 218, 1857)
What was Brigham meaning? “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven.” (JoD vol. 1, p. 50, April 9, 1852)
What did Brigham mean by "who is the Father?...first of the human family?”
”Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation…Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 770, 1853)
What other LDS “prophets” embraced Brigham’s “natural process” of begottening?
“…As the horse, the ox, the sheep, and every living creature, including man, propogates its own species & perpetuates its own kind, so does God perpetuate His.” (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Mediation & Atonement, 1882, p. 165 )
What about other LDS apostles? What did they say about this natural process?
"In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211)
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547.)
Now I’ve cited McConkie twice, and a lot of folks have seen one or both of those quotes, but not nearly as many have seen this following McConkie excerpt…where McConkie makes sure we otherstand the literalness of what’s he talking about:
“We have spoke PLAINLY of our Lord’s conception in the womb of Mary. I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men. And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father…And the Son is a Son is a Son…a literal, living offspring from an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacled in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord’s coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the SAME sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of God—the Only Begotten of the Father. (McConkie, The Promised Messiah, pp. 467-468, 1978)
In light of the above quotes, now do you see why DU is not a trustworthy source when it comes to representing what Lds leaders have said on a certain subject?
...tell us, DU, why John earlier said the following:
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s ONE and ONLY Son. (John 3:18)
Why is Jesus' deemed as the "ONE and ONLY" Son of God if Heavenly Father had all these other pre-existent spirit "sons," including Satan?
I thought you said you didn't contribute anyway?
(Nana: you MISSED!)
Gosh Nana! Just which IS your county?
DU seems to know; why don't I???
working in tornado-ravaged areas, including Tuscaloosa, Pleasant Grove, Concord, Moody, Sipsey, Argo, Anniston, Gadsden, Cullman, Phil Campbell and Hackleburg.
Tuscaloosa to Chattanooga
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