Can we please keep comments about the Mormon faith off the political discussion threads?

one man's opinion...

[ken5050]

As we enter the GOP primary season, I'm starting to notice more and more an annoying trend here in FR. It seems as though everytime there's an article, or someone posts a comment about Romney, either pro or con, it nearly always devolves into an extended, and acrimonious discussion about the Mormon faith. Those who defend it, and those who, for whatever reasons, can't abide it, both sides seem determined to wage an "end of times" batte on all the FR threads. Frankly, I'm tired of it, and just wish it would stop. I think that probably 99% of others here feel the same way.

[DelphiUser]

Greyfoxx39, Thanks for the link when I attempted to find it to link to earlier, all I got was dead links so I assumed it was pulled.Bookmarked now.

As for recalling missionaries and basically committing spiritual harry carry as a way to get you to stop attacking us, well it's not going to happen. you have really strange ideas about what we do. Ideas that I would never describe as “accurate” BTW.

as for asked to leave, I was speaking my opinion, of what kind of things should get a person banned. If asked to leave by Jim, I will. Until then you'll just have to put up with my sporadic appearances.

Delph

[Colofornian]

Your behavior, and that of your cohort, brings disgrace upon authentic Christianity, for you will be judged, by other human beings, not by your arguments, but by your example. [Cantabile says judgmentally)

Your goal is to get your jolies... [says Cantabile, not just judging outward behavior but inward motivations]

Haven't you ever read 1 Samuel 16:7 which talks about how man looks at the outward, but only God sees the heart? My. How do you do it?

How do you manage to judge internal motivations?...and then complain four graphs later about "judging?"

What? Do you use a magic 8-ball to judge internal motivations?

A personalized urim & thummim?

Why do you feel threated by the LDS? If they come to your door, all you need do is tell them you're not interested. That's what I do, and I do the same when the JW's show up.

Cantabile, why do you feel threatened by those who oppose LDS? If they post on a thread, all you need to do is not respond. Or is it that your advice is so weak that you can't live on it yourself?

If you want to know how to deal with Mormons, all you need do is consider the example of Jesus confronting the Samaritan woman at the well. Did He trash her beliefs? Did he condemn her as a heretic? No, he treated her with the respect due to every human being, and thereby convinced her that He had the words of everlasting life.

Massive confusion of audience. When the apostle Paul dealt with pagans, like Acts 17 on Mars Hill, he was "distressed" it says. He realized how afflicted they were by so many gods. He sought commonality with the "unknown god." He was patient with them.

Same chapter. Acts 17:2 re: how Paul dealt with Jews in the Synagogue. He reasoned with them. Same with Acts 18 (reasoned with them). In Acts 19:8, he "argued persuasively" with them...

Jesus was likely MUCH more forceful with the legalistic Pharisees. He labeled them children of Satan (John 8); he called them inward sepulcres (tombstones).

Today, Mormons are among the leading legalists of our times. Most fit in the Pharisee category, not your woman at the well. The woman at the well had five husbands and was living with another man. Does that sound like your average Mormon?

May I suggest you study God's Word a bit more before you try to export faulty applications?

And I will give this place not one penny until the bashing stops. ("Except, of course, the bashing I, Cantabile, pour out on others...calling them torturers, tormenters, superimposing imagined motivations such as 'jollies' and insecurity, bashing posters as 'disgraceful...hate(rs)' etc...Of course, that's allowed because I, Cantabile have paid for a license that gives me a right to bash!")

[DelphiUser]

I wish I had a resume' like that!

NObody loves ME enough to HATE me...

Switch sides in the debate, but you'd have to mellow your attack posture or you'll be banned before anyone can call you a name.

Delph

[Elsie]

has SLC folded up their multi billion dollar bank and fled ???

Did SOMEone say, "BANK"?

[Elsie]

Tormenting people on the Internet gives exceptionally poor testimony to the validity of Christianity.

Exposing people's HERETIC religion WOULD tend to torment them; wouldn't it!

[Elsie]

Taking pleasure in torturing people is decidedly un-Christian.

Galatians 5:12

[MHGinTN]

And I would be one of the first to endorse your right to exercise your discretion in the ballot box, so what’s your point?

[Elsie]

People who are secure in their belief don't need to engage in this kind of behavior.

Oh?

I am VERY 'secure'. Secure in the FACT that false teaching is COMMANDED to be exposed and rooted out.

If that ain't your thing; I have no problems with you.

But when you try to say that it CAN'T be MY thing; then we DO have problems.

[DelphiUser]

Interesting that your dream candidate is an old democrat.

Here is a link tot eh transcript Text Of Zell Miller's RNC Speech

Video Part 1 and Part 2

If you can watch this video and not get chills, well, I just don't know how you can do it.

I wish all democrats were like Zell, if so I dare say FR would be a Democrat supporting site opposing the current Liberal Republicans.

Yep, Zell was a Donk, that is part of why it'd be fun to have him run as a pubbie. Zell is a man's man and a conservative to boot.

I stand by my unrealistic dream team as a fun one to watch.

Delph

[Elsie]

When the facts are with you; argue the evidence.

When they are not; argue the law.

[Elsie]

Bullying people doesn't convince them.

I really am not trying to convince MORMONs.

They are VERY sure that they are right.

I am merely presenting the OTHER side of the story. The one that MORMONism does NOT want to be heard.

[Jim Robinson]

If FR is not your cup of tea, you can leave any time you wish.

[Elsie]

DelphiUser I have been damned to hell numerous times, been threatened with death, and called every name in the book right here on FR.

Bah!

Emma had THAT beat!

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Doctines and Covenants section 132

 

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

 52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

 53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be ^bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

 55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

 56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.

[Elsie]

Yup!

Those were the days all right!

The ones BEFORE Tweety and Twitter and Facebook.

THAT’S where they’ve all gone!

[Colofornian]

If your purpose is to convince the LDS that they are wrong, then comporting yourself as Jesus did is the most effective way of accomplishing your goal

So. You're trying to be "nicer than Jesus?" Have you read Matthew 23 lately? John 8? A whole host of other interactions Jesus had with the legalists of His day?

Have you ever heard the phrase, comfort the afflicted; and afflict the comfortable?

Do you believe Jesus practiced that? If the comfortable do not believe they have cancer, will they seek a physician?

Did not Jesus say only those who have need of a Physician seek Him? Do not we all have spiritual cancer?

Do not Mormons say they are literal spiritual children of a god who are sent to this planet to inhabit bodies and don't take on sin til age 8? Doesn't that mean they don't see themselves as having a special sin nature? Doesn't that mean -- since they are also taught from youth that they are "gods in embryo" -- that given their "god" course that they don't need to embrace the cross?

If you think you are a god or are becoming one, doesn't your pride need to be addressed? Maybe even "afflicted" -- so that you'll seek the Great Physician, after all?

I would like to see FR return to its position as a viable, influential political forum, not the refuge of certain privileged bigots

For those who delight in calling us "bigots", I sometimes wonder if people calling others "intolerant" are trying to showcase their "tolerance" or rather their "intolerance" of others? (I think FR poster, Osage Orange summed this up well one time with a Q to a poster: "I guess that makes you an anti-anti-Mormon bigot, eh?")

In light of the origin of the word "bigot" I find all this a bit ironic. Originally, the word “bigot” was developed in a Catholic context & wasn't originally aimed at anyone outside of a historic Christian (Catholic) context.

"Bigot" is etymologically tied to "Beguines." It's a French word, and was used abusively for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood, with the meaning of attaching "excessive devotion" to this sisterhood...(yeah, the devoted do get slapped around a bit). So, yes, in one way the original meaning of that word has survived as it's tied to perceived intolerance. (I don’t know if the Beguines were actually intolerant or not). The Beguines were probably at least perceived as practicing "spiritual one-upsmanship"--and others didn't like it--they felt looked down upon. Perhaps they felt scorned because such sisterhoods tended to isolate themselves more and because of that, the Beguines perhaps were perceived as being spiritually snooty (we simply don't like how excessively devoted they were).

But to wind this back to what I said. "Bigot" is originally tied to "excessive devotion." I suppose it's possible that the Beguines were indeed "excessively devoted." (It's also just as possible that the other Catholics' perception were largely wrong...but once a reputation develops...). But let's just say they were excessively devoted. If that's the name-slinging you wish to engage in, Cantabile, I'll just take the high road and claim a historical context.

But if you want to insist on the full contemporary usage of that term -- that "bigot" means "intolerant" -- then you need to answer Osage Orange's q I cited. Because aren't you showing religious intolerance toward us? On what grounds is your "intolerance" so "allowable" (& therefore elitist, IMA), whereas anyone else's perceived "intolerance" is called into question?

[Elsie]

One would almost be tempted to believe such an poster has been through Millett's Momronism Missionaries class teaching how to deceive questioners of Mormonism!

Did SOMEone say, "MILLET"?

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Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

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Timeline...    Subject...

 

0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

[muawiyah]

No doubt from the point of view of a Chinese Buddhist, or a Chinese Taoist, Mormonism and Christianity would appear to be essentially the same thing with only a few points of trivial difference.

On the other hand from the viewpoint of a Western Christian or Mormon, finding any difference between Taoists and Buddhists is equally difficult.

Getting beyond the problem of observation from afar there's this problem of self-depiction. The current Mormon church (in all it's many manifestations ~ hundreds of groups) is made up mostly of CONVERTS who were used to calling themselves Christian.

I think that explains a lot of it.

A buddy of mine in the Army became a Mormon because tithing (and its promise) was less costly than a comparable insurance policy. I'm sure he still thinks of himself as a Christian ~ but I never did. He's kind of like Milo Minderbender in Catch 22.

[Elsie]

Perhaps the main cause was that the COC couldn't swallow the fiction that Smith was a "prophet" speaking personally to God, and was given "golden plates" from which he "translated" a fantastic tale and claimed it was an "addition to the Bible".

Well; he 'translated' the BIBLE as well!

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See some differences between GOD's Word and the Joseph Smith's 'translation'

 

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Color coding explanation:

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Added stuff...                                                                                                    Changed stuff...                        Rearranged stuff...                                                                    Removed stuff...

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*(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every fifth word that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)

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JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24. Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked.     1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God.   2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate.   3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down.   4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world?   5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you;   6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many;   7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake;   8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another;   9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many;   10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold;   11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved.   12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand.   13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains;   14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house;   15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes;   16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days;   17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day;   18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel.   19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them.   20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened.   21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not;   22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.   23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet.   24 Behold, I have told you before;   25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not;   26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.   27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.   28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars.   29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.   30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved.   31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked;   32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled.   33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.   34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled.   35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled.   36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory;   37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.   38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand;   39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors;   40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.   41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man;   42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage;   43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.   44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft;   45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;   46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come.   47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready.   48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.   49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?   50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods.   51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming,   52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken,   53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,   54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth.   55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by. The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39  24:1-51            39.  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.    1.  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  2.  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  3.  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  4.  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  5.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  6.  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  7.  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  8.  All these are the beginning of sorrows.  9.  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.  10.  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  11.  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.  12.  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  13.  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  14.  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  15.  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  16.  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  17.  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  18.  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  19.  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  20.  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  21.  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22.  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  23.  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.  24.  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  25.  Behold, I have told you before.  26.  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.  27.  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  28.  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  29.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  30.  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  32.  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:  33.  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.  34.  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  35.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.  36.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  37.  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  38.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  39.  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  40.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  41.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  42.  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.  43.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.  44.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.  45.  Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?  46.  Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.  47.  Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.  48.  But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;  49.  And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;  50.  The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,   51.  And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.         King James Version of the Holy Bible Public domain

 

[Elsie]

To some, Mormons are guilty until proven innocent.

No; you got it wrong AGAIN!

The REASON is that MORMONism is PERFECT Christianity (Headquarters says so), thus, any NEED or TENDENCY for VIOLENCE is removed from the pure love that is MORMONism.

[Elsie]

To MOST, Mormons are guilty BECAUSE of the things that the BIBLE says.