Free Republic

Actually, I had to leave the office for the day, and real life called. I'm completely stunned at the sheer number of responses I've gotten, though, and they will take a while to sift through and provide complete responses, which I think you all deserve.

Bear with me, please. I have to do this while I'm at work, which means setting aside break time to do it.

I move the previous question. Can we get your take on the actual article?

Fair question. My take? Interesting central point (the conflation of world-wide America-hatred and a sort of neo-Marxism that will supposedly emerge after the "multitude" strikes the American state down).

Where the author loses me is when he deliberately equates that attitude with the American left. This seems to be an intentional supposition that the hatred non-Americans feel for our country, and the American left's distaste for our current right-wing government, are the same thing. They aren't.

With that, I have to leave. If my account still exists, I'll be back tomorrow. ;)

I understand that this is a conservative site. I'm sorry if my presence bothers you. Feel free to report me if you want to.

I'm here because this is where conservatives are. And while I know this is practically unheard of in this day and age, I think conservatives and liberals ought to spend more time talking to each other, and less time screaming at each other. I've tried to be polite throughout this thread, and I fully understand I'm not gonna win any converts here.

My hope? That you'll all try to understand me a little, and maybe think twice before you call me or other people who share my opinions "America Bashers," "America Haters," or the like.

How about "People who disagree with me?" Heck, I'd even be fine with "People who are just plain wrong."

Not sure what your point in showing me a photo of our soldiers is. Did you think I'd respond with automatic revulsion? I have nothing but respect for people who are willing to literally die for their country.

Please name the Democratic Senators or Representatives that have blamed the attacks of 9/11 on America itself. Please include the time, place, and context in which they made such absurd statements.

Please do not include any instance of a Senator or Representative suggesting we take a hard look at ourselves to figure out what went wrong and how to stop it in the future. That's the patriotic thing to do, the right thing to do, and calling that America Bashing is delusional.

I resent the blanket statement because, quite simply, it isn't true. Liberals do not hate America. You're currently talking to an America-loving citizen who happens to dislike our current government. I am living proof you're wrong.

So you don't like someone displaying the flag?
There are all weather flags, and if you have a light shining on it, it may be left up at night.

I know that. My point was that the people displaying their faux patriotism here don't know it. People here display flags that have been so thoroughly abused it's just sad. You almost seem to be intentionally misunderstanding my comments so that you can dislike me, while I'm trying to engage in an honest discussion. Please try to remember there's a live human being behind this keyboard, and you could try to treat him with some courtesy.

Here's a puzzle for you, then. If the state only has the "power to kill and destroy," why exactly are we in Iraq at the moment? We seem to be engaged in a nation-building exercise using the tool least suited to the task - i.e., the state.

Now, as it stands I actually agree with you on some levels. However, I firmly believe we, in this country, have succeeded in creating the best possible state, as it's the first to be by, of, and for the people. The worst thing that could happen would be if that stopped being the case.

Dude. I live in Frisco. I go to all of the commie rallies. The left is lousy with people who hate America. So you say you aren't one of them? Whoopty-frickin'-doo! The very fact that you come on to this thread and spew a bunch of whiny nonsense, while ignoring the plain reality that many of your fellow lefties are evil, lying haters of America, makes me think that you, yourself, are a profoundly dishonest person. Thus, I conclude that you almost certainly hate America.

I'm genuinely curious about this: What exactly have the liberals you've witnessed done or said that makes you think they hate America? I've seen and heard lots of statements that lead me to believe they share my dislike for this government and its policies, but nothing that screams "I hate America."

Please give me some examples of mainstream liberals showing their hatred. I'm not looking for the wacko fringe (unless you want me to turn around and present Fred Phelps as a "typical conservative"), I'm looking for the real thing.

Liberals DO America Bash.
Look at how they treat the flag, how they spew hatred at US soldiers, how they call our soldiers 'baby killers', how they scream and shout at people who proudly display the flag, how they constantly say stupid things along the lines of America deserving 9/11...

Painting me with the same blanket statements you would use to paint the most fringy of the fringe does both you and me a disservice. I have never acted like that, and most liberals don't. Similarly, most conservatives don't spew hatred like Fred Phelps or the like. But some do. Should I, then, accuse you of being a "jingoistic, ignorant, racist, redneck hick" because you're a conservative?

No. Absolutely not. I don't hate you. I disagree with you. There's a huge difference.

As an aside, I have a problem with the way most people in my city display the American flag. My problem? No, it's not the fact that they display it. It's the disrespect with which they display it. They leave it hanging out rain or shine, let it get ragged and moldy, they don't fly it at half-staff at the proper times, they let it get faded and discolored without properly retiring it and replacing it with a fresh one, and they think that a sun-bleached American flag magnet in their car window somehow makes them more patriotic than me.

It doesn't. It makes them more willing to buy crud made in China.

Just as I suspected the 'liberal' position to be:

communism is a perfect system - it's people who are flawed.

You drastically misunderstand me. My intention wasn't to say that people are flawed, it was to point out that communism is. Any system that only works if people are...

1) Exactly the same
2) Perfect in every way
3) Capable of producing exactly as much output of resources as they use

...is a terrible system.

Every economic system has its strengths and weaknesses. Liberals tend to think that the best economic system is capitalism tempered with some socialism, such as in medical insurance. But we've got no illusions that that's a perfect system either.

Every economic system can and will be abused by those who know how to work it.

Or else I'll ask you more sternly not to do it. :)

Seriously, I don't hate my country. The idea that I should even have to point that out is sad.

Honestly? No, I didn't read the article. I saw the term "America-Bashing" and, having seen it more times than I could count, felt I should respond to it. I suppose I should read the article, if only to understand how an analysis of Marx's ideas could lead to accusing liberals of "America-Bashing." Liberals aren't communists, and don't adhere to Marx's philosophy. I certainly don't; communism is a theory that only works in an absolute black-and-white moral world. As soon as human greed, envy, and pigheadedness come into play, it falls apart.

First off, check out my handle. Yes, I am in fact a visiting liberal. I understand that most of you won't agree with me on many ideological issues, and vice versa. I peruse Free Republic to get an idea of how conservatives think, because I honestly believe we should try to understand one another better.

That being said, this particular article inspired me to comment for the first time. I see the term "America-Bashing" used regularly in reference to liberals, and it honestly confuses me.

I love America. I grew up here, I've lived here all my life, and I wouldn't choose to live anywhere else unless I absolutely had to. But this doesn't - at least for me - equate to loving the government of America, or its policies. To me, love of America means supporting it when it's in the right, and correcting this country when it veers off course.

When the American revolution happened, this country's first patriots knew what it meant to love the British people and hate the British government. The first Americans basically were British, and thought of themselves as such. But the government had become too greedy, too powerful, too overbearing, and was punished for it.

We have a better system of punishing the government now. We remove our officials from office peacefully during elections. If they are criminal while in office, we remove them immediately and put them in jail. We replace them with, hopefully, better people. But we aren't beholden to them... They are beholden to us.

Now, it happens that you and I disagree on who in our current government are worthy individuals and who are not. We also strongly disagree on current foreign policy. You believe we are largely on the right course, while I believe we are not.

But what in that leads you to believe I actually hate America? Does a mother who corrects her child's misbehavior hate her child? No. She does it not despite her love, but because of it.

Disagree with me all you want... Disagreement is one thing that makes America great. But don't accuse me of hating my country.