Free Republic

Yes, facts are very stubborn thin, indeed. It's a shame, that some here love to post without knowing any.

Please see Post #98 - I admitted that I was mistaken about Live 8, which was apparently misguided leftist political activism.

But are you saying it was wrong for anyone to donate to Live Aid, which was a direct action charity fund-raiser that purchased food and distributed it directly to families suffering from a famine in Ethiopia (no money disbursed to dictators)?

BTW - at least I know that I don't know all the facts. ;-)

It wasn't a fundraiser. Guess you missed that. They said over and over again that "we don't want your money, just your voice".

Thanks for the correction. I thought "Live 8" was like "Live Aid", because both were organized by Bob Geldoff for the similar purpose of famine relief in Africa. Apparently, only "Live Aid" was a charity benefit to give food directly to the starving.

I agree that merely giving more government subsidies to corrupt dictatorships is throwing good money after bad. What a shameful waste of a valuable fund-raising opportunity to actually alleviate famine and suffering. Apologies to those I thought were rotten scumbags (although you shouldn't be so dismissive of those who are suffering from starvation.)

There's a good article on this topic at Samizdata -

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/007736.html

Live 8 is not Live Aid
Perry de Havilland (London) Globalization/economics

The original Live Aid back in 1985 was something I supported. I watched it, gave them my money and continued to vote for Margaret Thatcher in the next election because, just like in Africa, extreme statism needed to be opposed in the country I lived in too. Back in those days the Tory party had at least some intellectual coherence.

Live Aid was a very specifically targeted project: there was a catastrophic famine in Ethiopia and regardless of the fact that it was the result of a war vastly exacerbating the effects of a drought, I felt at the time that specifically aiding civilians with emergency assistance was neither going to destroy the local economy (it had already collapsed to less that subsistence) nor would it significantly enrich the Marxists at the top who were in no small way responsible for that state of affairs. Most importantly, Live Aid was asking for private money, and as it was mine to give, I gave some.

This time things are rather different and far less straightforward. It is not all bad, mind you. The Live 8 extravaganza has quite a few people associated with it making demands for the developed world (of which Russia is not truly a member, it should be noted) to open their markets to the Third World... and this is rightly targeted at the G-8 leaders. Quite so. What the hellholes of the world need is more globalization, not less, if they are to lift themselves out of their dire conditions.

But alas the main thrust of what Live 8 seems to be about is to induce the governments of the G-8 to take money from their taxpayers and assign it to nebulous and frequently counter-productive projects in Africa, often in effect propping up the regimes who are the single biggest cause of their own nation's problems and directly responsible for local poverty.

As with any large gathering of the music illiterati, coherence and cogency are going to be as rare as pelicans in Perthshire. Yet some of the people listening to the streams of babble at this event will come away with the simple idea lodged in their brains that making trade freer is one of those things that would make the world a better place. So whilst I have no interest in supporting Live 8 myself and I had better things to do than watch it yesterday, perhaps some good will come from it in spite of the toxic statist message at this event's core.

"The reason that people are starving in Africa, is because the DICTATORS are starving them and most of the money lands in their Swiss or another nation's bank vaults.

There is less than NOTHING that any of these pompous, self-righteous lefties and their dupes can do for any African, unless they and YOU are willing to go in there, kill the beasts ( the tyrants and their followers ) and set up a true democratic republic in every nation there.

Educate yourself, before you post such claptap to a thread and if you want to discuss religion and post scriptures, take it to the religion forum."

----------------------

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

Government aid, World Bank Loans, etc., are disbursed to national governments. Those funds have been embezzled by dictators and warlords. (That's the reason the Administration nominated Paul Wolfowitz to the World Bank - to oversee reforms to the administration of grants and loans to impoverished countries and to stop graft and corruption.)

On the other hand, private charitable donations in the form of FOOD, WATER, AND SHELTER are distributed directly to the needy by the charitable organizations.

To be certified as tax-deductible non-profit organizations, the IRS requires direct oversight and control of the disbursement of all charitable donations by a non-profit to their beneficiaries. The money raised from Live 8 is not paid to a dictator.

Regarding your objection to my quoting the wisdom of the Bible in support of a moral position compelling aid to those suffering from starvation, poverty, and disease -- please state the source of your professed morality that dictates withholding help and abandoning men, women, and children to die horrible deaths from starvation because of your own "pompous, self-righteous" and uneducated views?

So, nopardon, if your family were dying of starvation, would you REALLY refuse nourishment and prefer to let your family die if the relief came from the Live 8 benefit hosted by musicians who eat sushi and ride in limos?

If you WOULD feed your starving baby from the food donations raised by idiotic rock musicians, then you need to rethink your hypocrisy and beg pardon from those whom your words condemned to suffer and die. And if you wouldn't feed your baby, you seriously need to rethink a lot more than that.

"re #85. There's one in every crowd."

What do you think I'm one of? In contrast, what do you think you are?

"OH, I'm heartless eh? How about the artists at this event eating sushi and other delicacies? THAT is heartless. Pretending you care is more heartless than calling the phonies on their phoniness. At least I'm honest."

Your self-righteous "honesty" and a dime might actually help a person who's starving.

The Live 8 musicians may eat sushi and ride in limos, but at least they're actually doing something to save lives. Why do you suggest it's hyprocritical and wrong to help the poor unless you live in poverty yourself?

Rather than behave like the Leftist ingrates, we should give credit where credit is due. Live 8 isn't taxing people to redistribute wealth; it was a charity fundraiser! Live 8 is NOT government-enforced Communism. Donating charity is a personal choice to excercise morality.

The attitude from some on here that Africans deserve to be left in famine, drought, poverty, and disease to die is disgusting.

These people aren't evil. They're struggling for food and water. Their only sin was the misfortune of being born into poverty -- just as the only virtue of some posters on here was apparently being born into relative plenty.

The article I posted above quoted a valid point in that the money would be better spent on sustainable and renewable resources than on hand-outs, but it doesn't negate the fact that their lives depend on our help.

Let me also remind the good posters here that consideration and care for the hungry, poor, and oppressed is the FOUNDATION of our morality as a society, and we ignore morality at our own peril:

• "If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks." Deut. 15:7
• "When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14
• "because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12
• "Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25
• "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16
• "The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9
• "But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18
• " Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5
• "You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6
• "This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6
• "My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10
• "The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14
• "Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17
• "A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5
• "Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10
• "The poor will see and be glad-- you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33
• "Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5
• "He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4
• "For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13
• "Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21
• "Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4
• "But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41
• "For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31
• "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9
• "He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7
• "I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15
• "I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12
• "He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7
• "The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9
• "I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23
• "He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21
• "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31
• "The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25
• "Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19
• "He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5
• "He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17
• "If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
• "A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9
• "He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich -- both come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16
• "Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22
• "A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3
• "He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27
• "The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7
• "those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14
• "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9
• "She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20
• "If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8
• "Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17
• "The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15
• "to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2
• "With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4
• "The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30
• "You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4
• "Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19
• "The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7
• "The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
• "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7
• "If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10
• "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1
• "On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34
• "I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4
• "(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28
• "if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6
• "This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3
• "'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16
• "Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13
• "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49
• "He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7
• "The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29
• "This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7
• "Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1
• "Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4
• "Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6
• "Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10
• " So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5

Man, way to be heartless. Unfortunately, millions ARE dying of starvation in Africa:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/01/25/africa.famine/

Silently, starvation stalks millions in Africa Saturday, January 25, 2003 Posted: 1:08 PM EST (1808 GMT)

The poor in Ethiopia are subsisting on cracked wheat as drought starves crops.

The poor in Ethiopia are subsisting on cracked wheat as drought starves crops.

CNN's Catherine Bond reports Ethiopians are suffering from a drought even more severe than one that shocked the world in 1984.

AFRICA HUNGER CRISIS

• Total: 38.2 million people face starvation in 2003.

• Southern Africa: 16.4 million
• Greater Horn: 17.9 million
• Great Lakes: 2.7 million
• Western Sahel: 448,000
• West Africa: 791,000

Source: U.N. World Food Program

DERA, Ethiopia (CNN) -- Drought, AIDS and preventable disease have put millions of Africans at risk of starvation. People in southern Africa and the Horn of Africa stand to suffer most, officials say.

The U.N. World Food Program (WFP) said in December that more than 38 million people across Africa are at risk of starvation. (Distribution of threat in Africa)

Hardest hit are the Horn of Africa, where about 17.9 million people face severe food shortages, and southern Africa, where 16.41 million are at risk, the agency said.

In Ethiopia, the U.N. agency expects to provide food aid to 11.3 million people in 2003, but that number could rise to 14.3 million people by year's end.

The food relief that agencies provide is holding mass starvation at bay for now, but the meals are not substantial.

"If we're lucky, we'll eat flat bread once a week," said an Ethiopian man receiving food in an assistance line. "But mainly we survive on cracked wheat."

The problem is compounded by AIDS and treatable diseases -- such as diarrhea, pneumonia and tuberculosis -- that destroy the lives of people needed to help communities recover from drought and natural disasters, according to U.N. officials.

"While the world's attention is currently gripped by events in other regions, Africa is in crisis with thousands of people dying silently each day, " read a U.N. statement correlating the effect AIDS has on Africa food security.

The Ethiopian government is preparing a worldwide appeal for food assistance, said Olga Keita of the World Food Program.

"We are also doing the same," she said. "You could see the condition of these children. If they are not receiving food in a few weeks, we [will] not find anybody in this village [in southern Ethiopia]."

Water is too scarce to use for bathing, and drought has created dust bowls.

People are grateful for the lifeline of food aid, but they prefer to have healthy land instead of international charity, aid workers say, adding that benefactors missed an opportunity to prevent future crises when they doled out help 18 years ago.

The United States and other Western governments spent millions of dollars to send grain surpluses to Ethiopia then. Aid workers contend that money would have been better spent on long-term solutions such as irrigation.

In Ethiopia, there is little water for drinking or bathing. Ponds have become bowls of baked earth, and trees are tinder dry. Drought grips much of the nation. In many areas, people have to walk up to 6 miles (about 10 kilometers) to find fresh water.

Food is available for people who have money -- markets stock tomatoes, onions, beans and potatoes. But drought and poverty are the twin evils in Ethiopia, and they feed on another.

Aid workers disperse food to people. Aid workers disperse food to people.

Yet without money, Ethiopians are doing anything to survive. A woman named Nafisa takes firewood to the market to sell so that she will have money to buy drinking water for her children.

Livestock numbers are dropping because of the fodder and water shortage. The remaining animals are skeletal and fetch a lower price than usual.

The selling price of cattle is "nowhere near enough. In good times, they fetch 10 times that," an Ethiopian farmer said. "I'm just selling them instead of watching them die."

An area known as Dera in Ethiopia used to be the country's breadbasket. Threshers report they don't have enough to feed themselves and certainly not enough to sell.

CNN Correspondent Catherine Bond contributed to this report.

It's pure hyprocrisy for Arabs to complain about their "human rights" when they don't acknowledge much less respect the human rights of anyone else (and not even among themselves).

ping

This mission proved that prelude technology now exists to intercept and nuke an incoming asteroid to alter the course of an earth impact. The world may have been saved tonight!

That's true, as long as an asteroid doesn't catch us by surprise, and we have time to prepare. I recall reading that a medium-sized meteor could avoid being detected until it entered the earth's atmosphere and could have the impact of several thermonuclear explosions.

Still, the U.S.A. just demonstrated the ability to defend our planet from major extraterrestrial threats.

What about the sounds? Will we hear anything. . .

No sound... sound waves don't travel in the vacuum of space... Star Wars and Star Trek explosive sound effects notwithstanding ~

Dean Scream

Good post. Reminds me of a recently televised film awards show that featured a number of different actors reciting the line from the movie Taxi Driver:

Are you talking to me?

Nobody but nobody was able to express that phrase with the sheer depth of meaning of Al Pacino. The expression belongs to Pacino, regardless who wrote it.

It's the same way that Sinatra's songs are Sinatra's, regardless who wrote them.

For an interesting contrast of judicial systems dealing with somewhat similar circumstances, the Latelier case in the US is instructive:

Latelier v. Republic of Chile (USCA 2nd Cir., 1985)

This is a foot in the door for International Big Brother. Tracking criminals across borders is already done by Interpol, which has access to criminal records databases for all G8 nations. This is an extra goody for governments.

Everybody hates pedophiles (with good reason), so nobody will object to setting up an international database to keep track of their locations.

Likewise, watch for the other shoe to drop as former convicts are the first (but not the last) to be forced by governments to have tracking devices implanted in their bodies.

Once the infrastructure is in place, governments will require citizens to carry ID's embedded with locator chips for their own safety (the implants will probably be voluntary, just for convenience, at first).

"In your earlier post, you suggest that she might have signed the affidavit to be given access in order to have a credible case against him later. That's just not plausible to me."

I apologize for being cynical about the mother's motives in this case - I normally give people the benefit of the doubt, but the mother here has a proven history of perpetrating scams, frauds, and deceit.

Whether an action is implausible is opinion; whether an action is impossible is fact. Having an ulterior motive for signing the affidavit was possible (since the scam couldn't work without access to Jackson... and even with the affidavit she came very close to succeeding) and after 14 weeks of seeing the evidence, hearing the testimony, and weighing the arguments, the jury had a different opinion than many of the posters here about whether a scam by the mother was implausible.

There was a quote published by one of the jurors who noted that eye-witness testimony by the family members contradicted each other, and then went on to question what sort of mother would let her young child sleep with a grown man for such a long period of time, especially when he'd already been accused of child sex abuse and settled the case.

I plead the Fifth on the attorney question. ;-).

I don't know whether Jackson did what he was accused of doing, and the jurors didn't either. It's amazing how many people posting here were apparently flies on the wall at the Neverland Ranch and have first-hand knowledge of the truth of the allegations...

Considering that the prosecution spent $2 Million and assigned their most experienced district attorneys on the case, I think they presented their best case, and even their best case wasn't presentable.

I believe this was a high profile political show trial designed for DA Tom Sneddon to leverage himself into a political career as Attorney General of California. Why else waste so much money and resources on a relatively weak case, except that it was high profile, translating to high payoff for DA Sneddon?

The AG should prosecute Sneddon for converting millions of tax-payer dollars for his own publicity campaign.