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And old-earth disagrees with Paul in Romans 5:12, where he states "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Either death entered the world when Adam sinned (per Paul) or myriad generations of death had already occurred when Adam sinned.

Why in the world would evolutionists want to stop climate change? I mean, to an evolutionist, isn't man just part of the natural Earth system, and isn't change in nature progressive?

Seems to me these evolutionists are standing in the way of what they should believe is natural progress.

And if an evolutionist complains that climate change would endanger the human race, well shame on you for being so selfish that you're willing to halt planetary progress just for a bunch of bipedal pond-scum. There are other species waiting to emerge.

If not, why not?

"Jesus died for all who were predestined."

• "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2Pet 3:9
• "...my flesh which I give for the life of the world" - Jn 6:51
• Christ "tasted death for every man" - Heb 2:9
• "He is the propitiation for...the sins of the whole world" -1Jn 2:2
• God "will have all men to be saved" - 1Tim 2:3-4
• "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself" - Jn 12:32
• "The grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men" - Tit 2:11
• "Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all" - 1Tim 2:5-6

"The issue here is you are taking L out of the equation"

Actually, the entirety of TULIP is anti-scriptural, and is "another gospel".

Those whom God gave to Jesus were those who responded in faith to the call. Consider the following passages, which become nearly ridiculous if acceptance of God is forced upon an individual:

• Rom 11:22-23 “Consider the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
• Rom 10:21 “But concerning Israel he says, ‘All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
• 2Cor 5:20 “We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.”
• 2Cor 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.”
• Heb 10:29 “How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has...insulted the Spirit of grace?”
• Gen 6:3 “My Spirit will not contend with man forever.”
• Acts 7:51 “You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”
• Rev 2:20-22 “I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.”
• Heb 11:6 “Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
• Luke 7:30 “But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.”
• John 7:17 “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God.”

There is nothing one can do to earn salvation, but there is something one can do to enjoy the free gift of salvation from God: Trust God!

A soveriegn God gets to answer the question posed by the sinners on Pentecost (and us) who asked, "What shall we do?" They (and us) were told "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

Because of the L in TULIP - limited atonement - maybe God didn't do anything on the cross for you. Maybe you're one of the ones for which Jesus' death was not efficacious.

And based on Calvin's Institutes III, maybe you're one of those poor reprobates who "are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them." Maybe you're one of those who Calvin says has been fooled into thinking you're saved by "an inferior operation of the Spirit."

My original question still goes unanswered: Where are the people who hold Calvinism to be true and realize they are among the vast majority unconditionally and irrevocably damned under Calvin's scheme of redemption?

"If you're a Calvinist (or any Christian for that matter)..."

Ah! There's the pit of the question. Why does one have to be a Christian to believe Calvinism presents a correct explanation of God's plan of salvation? Isn't Calvinist best defined as one who believes Calvin was correct, reardless of where one believes he falls within the scheme?

"...means you have faith in what Christ did on the cross.

But because of the L in TULIP - limited atonement - maybe he didn't do anything on the cross for you. Maybe you're one of the ones for which Jesus' death was not efficacious.

Where are the people who hold Calvinism to be true and realize they are among the vast majority unconditionally and irrevocably damned under Calvin's scheme of redemption?

So, an individual cannot believe Calvin was right (ie - be a Calvinist) without first being saved?

Why can't an individual who is not saved believe Calvinism is correct (ie - be a Calvinist)? Lack of enlightenment of secret knowledge? Maybe the Gnostics were right.

I assume you believe Calvin was right (ie - are a Calvinist) and believe you are among the saved. How do you know whether your confidence in your salvation is authentic vs. an inferior working of the Holy Spirit?

"...experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instils into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption."

"there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate."

"Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognise his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never obtain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent."

- The Devil, via John Calvin, Institutes III, Chapter 2.

At best, this makes confidence in salvation wholly subjective to the individual's whims ("even in their own judgment there is no difference between them"), and separates that conviction from an objective, authoritative source.

At worst, this makes God the author of a lie in the mind of the the recipient of the "inferior working of the Holy Spirit," which is the work of Satan from the beginning.

I asked, "Have you ever met a Calvinist who didn't believe they were one of the chosen ones?"

You replied, "Yes, Calvinists believe God has chosen to give them saving faith."

I think maybe you missed the meaning of my question, because you say "yes", then you go on to say Calvinists believe they are chosen, which would mean "no".

I ask again, in another way: Since you agree that it seems all Calvinists believe they are among the ones chosen for salvation, why aren't there any Calvinists who believe they are among the ones chosen for damnation?

You’re such a root. :-)

Wow. Where’d you get THAT from?

You wrote, "Paul said love was more important than faith..."

We probably agree, but I want to share an analogy that helps me remember what Paul is saying about faith, hope, love in 1Cor 13.

A farmer plants a fruit tree. The roots are like our faith - grounding the tree firm in the soil. The branches are like hope - reaching up to the heavens. But the fruit is like love - the end purpose of the tree, the reason it was planted in the first place. Without strong roots and solid branches, there can be no fruit. But the greatest of these is the fruit - love.

I didn’t say “believing Christian.” I said “Calvinist.” Seems like at least some proponents of Calvinism should know they are predestined to perdition, but every Calvinist I know believes they’re saved. Maybe the ones who think they are among the condemned just don’t want to talk about it. :-)

Have you ever met a Calvinist who didn't believe they were one of the chosen ones?

Did you know Calvin taught in his Institutes that an "inferior working of the Holy Spirit" can cause one to think they are saved when in reality they are not saved?

To Buchanan's last point, maybe the right thing to do is to go to the body to which we are tied through anti-WMD treaties and tell them action is needed by them. If they refuse, start untying ourselves from that body because it is an ineffective drain on our precious resources. "International community" indeed. What a joke.

If the Old Testament teaches us anything, it is that God, while longsuffering, does have a limit to his patience with such societies.

Wondering why the sudden rush for amnesty to be declared as soon as possible?

When you see the rats scurrying to jump off the ship, what does that say about the ship?

I would definitely agree that all of nature "fell" below paradise as a result of Adam & Eve fall. As Paul wrote in Romans 8, "the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

And I would agree that as we all now live in a world that is well below paradise, we are subject to curses listed in Genesis that pre-fall Adam and Eve didn't encounter.

However:

• Even Adam and Eve, sinless and in paradise, were given the choice whether to rebel against God or walk with God.

• Jesus is the only man who has lived on this cursed planet and has not succumbed to sin.

One thing I am sure we can agree on: now that we know all have sinned and need a savior, let's share Jesus with them!

“Speak for yourself, Rodent.” - Moe

Yes, I did miss your post 73.

Regarding God visiting the iniquity of the father on the following 3-4 generations:

What aspect(s) of iniquity of the father are visited on the son? You understand it to be the guilt and/or punishment of iniquity. The Jews misunderstood it the same as you. And that's why God specifically revealed they (and you) were wrong.

Read Ezekiel 18:19-32. A bit long to post all here, but a significant excerpt from the outset:

"Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

The Lord told them (and us) that the concept of the son inheriting the guiltiness of the father is not,/i> true. The sons do not bear the guilt and punishment of the fathers' iniquity.

So then, what about iniquity is visited on the next generations? It seems the only option left is the physical consequences of that iniquity: national/familial degradation, removal of God's protective providence. We see that played out over and over in history, as revealed in OT & NT scripture.

I guess it all comes so clear when we add our preconceived notions to what scripture actually says. :-)