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Dont sass your mama, remember, I whipped your ass when you were this little, Ill do it again

I agree! I think if I had lost my dad when I was a child I would be bitter about it too! His feelings are VERY understandable.

"His dad was killed in WWII was he not? "


Yes, his dad was killed in WWII. I think he was actually listed as missing. If ya notice a lot of his lyrics deals with not having a father around. He seems very bitter about it. It is mentioned several times in "The Wall" and "The Final Cut". Also in the song "When the Tigers Broke Free" That song is about a WWII battle, the last line says "thats how they took me daddy from me"
I have heard that the line in "Wish You Were Here" thatt says "did you exchange your walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage" is about his dad too. The theme seems to be a major topic for his lyrics.


P.S.
On the "Final Cut" the song "Fletcher Memorial Home" is named for his dad Eric Fletcher Waters 1918-1944

"So, in areas where Lincoln could have freed slaves, he didnt. In areas where he had no control, he ordered slaves to be
freed.

If President Lincoln had the power to free the slaves up North all on his own then why bother with the 13th Amendment?"


As I stated in an earlier post, he didnt have the constitutional power to free them. He had the physical power to do it. He had already shown that the constitution wasnt going to stop him. My point was that if he really was very concerned about slaves then he could have freed them. It would have been unconstitutional and therefore wrong.

"So your saying that "Delaware, District of Columbia, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri and the New Mexico Territory"
were states that were with the Union in the Civil War, which had slaves, and which were unaffected by the Emancipation
Proclamation?"

Yes, thats correct. Oh, and West Virginia. They became a state during the war

To: All

Many thanks to all of you who took the bait and allowed Baghdad Bob Nashville Walt to hijack the thread.

259 posted on 05/13/2003 12:24 PM PDT by VMI70 (...but two Wrights made an airplane)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]


Yep, I fell into that trap! Hey, give me a break, Im fairly new on here LOL

Also, what states in the north still had slavery that were exempt?

233 posted on 05/13/2003 11:18 AM PDT by yonif

"According to the US Census of 1860, there were only 64 slaves in all of the "Free" States and Territories in that year: 29 in
Utah Territory, 15 in Nebraska Territory, 2 in Kansas Territory, and 18 in New Jersey. New Jersey had abolished slavery and
the New Jersey slaves had the right to freedom but were too old or sick or otherwise unemployable to voluntarily abandon the
security of their status. Of course, there were 432,586 slaves in the slave-owning "Southern" states and territories that remained
loyal to the Union, including Delaware, District of Columbia, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri and the New Mexico Territory. But
in no case can these border states and territories be described as "up north."

Walt

Walt is exactly right! Even though these states werent considered "up north" they did remain in the union. As a result, the union did allow slavery as an instituion throught the war. They were well within their constitutional rights.

"Slavery was a state institution clearly protected in the Constitution. President Lincoln had NO power to affect it in the normal
course of administering the government. He had revoked emancipation initiatives by Generals Hunter and Butler early in the war
You obviously don't know the history.
President Lincoln well knew that the EP only had force as a war measure. That is why he was a strong advocate of the 13th
amendment."

Oh, I DO know the history. You are absoultely right. I have always said slavery was porotected by the constitution and Lincoln did know this.
When I said he didnt free the slaves in states where he had the power to, I wasnt speaking of
constitutional power. I was speaking of physical power. He had already used physical force aganist states exercising their constitutional rights, why stop then! He went aganist the constitution by just issuing the proclamation.
If the war was about slavery, as most seem to think, then he had already shown
that constitutionally protected rights were just a bump in the road for him.

Yes, it was a war measure, nothing more than a political move.

"Secession is illegitimate.

Good thing Washington, Jefferson and the others didn't know that."

And, The "anti-secessionist" Lincoln encouraged the secession of forty-eight counties from Virginia to form the pro-union state of West Virginia

"I recall reading somewhere that after Lincoln's Emancipation Prolamation, there were still slaves in the
North. Is this true?"


Yes, it is true. The slave states that remained in the union were exempt from the Emancipation
Prolamation. There were also areas in the southern states that were under Union control so they were
exempt also. The proclamation only applied to areas that were under confederate control. The areas
under union control were exempt. At the time the proclamation was issued, it freed noone. The 13th
amendment ratified on Dec 6 1865 abolished slavery.

So, in areas where Lincoln could have freed slaves, he didnt. In areas where he had no control, he ordered slaves to be freed.

THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION:

By the President of the United States of America:

A PROCLAMATION

Whereas on the 22nd day of September, A.D. 1862, a proclamation
was issued by the President of the United States, containing,
among other things, the following, to wit:

"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as
slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people
whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall
be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval
authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such
persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any
of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

"That the executive will on the 1st day of January aforesaid,
by proclamation, designate the States and parts of States, if any,
in which the people thereof, respectively, shall then be in
rebellion against the United States; and the fact that any State
or the people thereof shall on that day be in good faith
represented in the Congress of the United States by members
chosen thereto at elections wherein a majority of the qualified
voters of such States shall have participated shall, in the
absence of strong countervailing testimony, be deemed conclusive
evidence that such State and the people thereof are not then
in rebellion against the United States."

Now, therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United
States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-In-Chief
of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed
rebellion against the authority and government of the United States,
and as a fit and necessary war measure for supressing said
rebellion, do, on this 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, and in
accordance with my purpose so to do, publicly proclaimed for the
full period of one hundred days from the first day above mentioned,
order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the
people thereof, respectively, are this day in rebellion against
the United States the following, to wit:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana (except the parishes of St. Bernard,
Palquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James, Ascension,
Assumption, Terrebone, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans,
including the city of New Orleans), Mississippi, Alabama, Florida,
Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia (except the
forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the
counties of Berkeley, Accomac, Morthhampton, Elizabeth City, York,
Princess Anne, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and
Portsmouth), and which excepted parts are for the present left
precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

And by virtue of the power and for the purpose aforesaid, I do
order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said
designated States and parts of States are, and henceforward shall
be, free; and that the Executive Government of the United States,
including the military and naval authorities thereof, will
recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

And I hereby enjoin upon the people so declared to be free to
abstain from all violence, unless in necessary self-defence; and
I recommend to them that, in all case when allowed, they labor
faithfully for reasonable wages.

And I further declare and make known that such persons of
suitable condition will be received into the armed service of
the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and
other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service.

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice,
warranted by the Constitution upon military necessity, I invoke
the considerate judgment of mankind and the gracious favor
of Almighty God.

"I can only assume that you are a victim of ..... propaganda, or you are willingly pushing an interpretation based on
skewed information."

And I assume the same of you sir!
Actually, I never said that the southern leaders werent bigoted, racist, or whatever one would choose to call them.
I would admit that by today standard most if not all were. My problem with the anti-south pro-north crowd is that they wont admit the same of their own leaders. MOST all white folks during the 1861-65 war(north and south) would be considered racist by todays standards.

"Lee wrote in an 1865 letter that the best relation of white and black was that of master and slave. He really gets a much better
press than he deserves.

Walt"


"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality
between the white and black races," he announced in his
Aug. 21, 1858, debate with Stephen Douglas. "I, as well as
Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong
having the superior position." And, "Free them [slaves] and
make them politically and socially our equals? My own
feelings will not admit of this. We cannot, then, make them
equals."
Lincoln gets a MUCH better press than he desreves

Potheads!!

"Oh my!
What could that baby have done to deserve this?"




Nothing at all!!

Yes, I know they are from Texas but, that is still part of Dixie.
They dont exactly exhibit the southern/country music additudes do they?? Then again, it seems a lot of the newer "counrty" performers dont!

Im from Dixie ("Heart Of" to be exact) and Im ashamed to say the Dixie Chicks are from Dixie!!

"If he's still alive, I hope people will demand answers about Vietnam too."

And Korea!! There are still over 8,000 MIA's from the "Forgotten War"

"Lets put it this way. I dont know anyone fighting in the war that is watching MTV"

I dont believe I said they ARE watching Mtv. I said they are the MTV generation. I do know soldiers who are currently deployed who DO watch MTV when they are home. My point was that just because someone watches MTV, that doesnt make them
or their opinions insignificant. Actually, there isnt much on TV, including MTV that is worth watching.

"who cares about MTV's
poles? just abunch of non-voters that dont work for a living and sit home watching TV "


Keep in mind, the MTV crowd/generation are the ones fighting the war!! Granted, a lot of them are lazy and nonproductive
but a lot are a great asset to our society.