Did I say that I do it if I "feel" it? No, I didn't. I specifically said "as the Spirit moves."
We all know our God is the God of the unbridled.
That was blasphemy.
Posted on 09/23/2003 7:50:20 AM PDT by presidio9
No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.
Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.
According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.
The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.
If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.
According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."
The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.
Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.
Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.
The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."
Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.
Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.
The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.
The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.
It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.
Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.
"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.
That's just another canned answer. He didn't appear to her as he really was. He only appeared as he really was with his wounds to his disciples later.
Apparently such advice is not what you want to seek.
What good does it do for us to go over the same ground over and over again. Like many Catholics, I have absolutely no use for "therapists" whose daily bread comes from telling people what they want to hear. in is sin and no amount of pretty verbiage or comforting verbiage or "There, there, poor baby verbiage will change the reality. One key is the recognition that there is such a thing as objective reality.
You are shopping to find others to console you. When they do, that is, as expected, NOT the solution. You cannot expect total strangers to help with your deep problems which require, not a shrink, but a spiritual advisor.
You recognize that the Holy Eucharist of the RCC is the Body and Blood of Christ. That puts you well ahead of many who think themselves Catholic. Build on that.
Most of us really don't care about your therapist's pain in being told that women are capable of restraining male sexual drives. Further, this is not fodder for the internet.
The alcoholic who feels that a few drinks in the morning will steady his/her "nerves" and make it easier to face the day is not realistic. Nor are you when you feel that nursing feminist grievances against God's own Church will somehow deliver you from pain.
I don't really care that your therapist is a kind person. That again is self-indulgence in that you value a professional by her "kindness" which usually amounts to the "There, there, poor baby" thing.
This is about God, God, God, and NOT about you, you, you. In our society, it does not take audacity to complain.
You appear to be a very roubled person. You need a spiritual advisor. It is your soul that needs healing.
Did I say that I do it if I "feel" it? No, I didn't. I specifically said "as the Spirit moves."
We all know our God is the God of the unbridled.
That was blasphemy.
That simply is not true. She had the honor of seeing Him in His glorious state before anyone else.
Nice straw man. Isn't it amazing how easily those fall down?
I think a male priesthood where "the greatest among you must be the servant of all" is God's Will. And you and I are supposed to "take it" as God's Will. As for not associating with "women like [you]", I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you think priests don't minister to the mentally ill, you are gravely mistaken.
I used to think it was a pop song from the 60's/70's myself.
And another thing, I could have sworn I heard them reciting the lyrics of "40" by U2 at a recent Mass I attended. What's going on here?
The definition of "functioning alcoholic" can vary. A social drinker to one is an alcoholic to another.
In any event, I have not experienced what you have.
In any case, there are more alcoholic priests than there are priests addicted to porn. Is that fair?
Well, alcohol has been around longer. Perhaps porn will catch up. Wait, that's not what you meant, right? ;-)
One who is an alcoholic should be treated for such, the same as a porn addict. There are licit uses of alcohol. There are no licit uses for porn.
SD
You asked for an example, I gave one. There was nothing deeper involved. I don't feel persecuted or superior. Do you?
I'm not arguing - I'm simply stating fact.
No, you discounted the need for altar boys rather than girls, by stating the anecdotal evidence of you and yoru peers.
There is a difference between the statements "The vast majority of priests were altar boys" and "the vast majority of altar boys become priests."
Did you serve alongside altar girls?
< No, but I wouldn't have minded doing so. My service was from (roughly) the years 1977-1981.
Well, a lot of young boys do eschew doing "girl" things, especially when conscious of their peers. As altar girls turn altar service into a "girl" thing, boys eschew it.
SD
STOP! If He is worthy of all praise, He's worthy of all praise. No other qualifiers are needed.
Would you "clap" and "dance" at the foot of the Cross as Jesus was nailed upon it to do for our sins?
:-/
The Mass is the representation of the sacrifice of the Cross.
That's strange. Father Juhas taught us that the Mass is The Lord's Supper. Now you say it's the about the Cross.
Hmmmm...so...practice is not considered a part of doctrine? That's a good thing! No argument from me! We'll all be judged by our deeds and not our doctrine, anyway. May God have mercy on me.
You know, my point is this. The Church is in deep crisis. Its leadership bears the brunt of the responsibilty for the crisis. So, they issue instructions to the leadership about "zero tolerance" of sexual crimes, only after a huge public outcry. They're embarrassed. Now they want to move on.
So, their most recent response has been to make the sheep shape up---to suppress any natural urges towards enthusiasm or delight or beauty, because it's, well, messy. "Yep. Looky here. Our historical practice says you sheep need to get back to being reverent and restrained!"
Beating the sheep is an old ploy to keep the focus off of the shepherds.
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