No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[Aliska]

If the reaction is to try to emulate all the wicked things that men do, then I'd say somewhere these particular "womyn" have gone off the rails. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe they need some understanding and compassionate men to set them back on the right track. Where would you suggest they look for such spirital fathers?

[Marysecretary]

No, we aren't walking bags of sin, dear Aliska. Jesus Christ paid for those sins. You don't have to pay over and over and over for them. It was done at the cross. You can walk in freedom without carrying all the baggage from the past with you. It's like we carry around suitcases full of old clothes, everything we've ever worn, and they cases get heavier and heavier. Jesus freed us from that. You need to go to HIM and confess your sins. He's more than willing to forgive you. You don't have to carry it around anymore, my dear girl.

[My back yard]

I wouldn't mind the head coverings coming back too. It is a gesture of respect. But I'm also not one who believes you have to dress all up either. Don't make excuses to not go because you don't have something nice to wear. Casual is not bad. A clean shirt and skirt or even slacks. Don't have to look pretty. Dress as well as you would to attend a dinner with the Boss. :)

[dangus]

I hadn't heard of the Lambert case, although it sounds similar to the coffee case (as in, the parishioners being shocked at what appeared to be flirty behavior). Perhaps my source had lost track of the case, before the priest had been laicised, moved to Georgia and got married.

Other than that, I'm not sure what the point of your post is, other than to say "Ha! Ha! You're Wrong!" With the new information, it still is only similar to the DC case *I* cited. As for the one or more priests referred to in your other article:

It is disturbing to read of a priest reading gay pornography. It is not, however, sexual abuse. Certainly such a priest should be removed from the priesthood, as he represents the *future* *danger* of doing something terrible, and demonstrates severe spiritual problems. He was removed, as appropriate.

As for the liberalization of the diocese: Yes, this suggests that there may be scandal in the future *because* the diocese is becoming more liberal. This hardly refutes my point that scandal has been rare in conservative dioceses!

[Natural Law]

Catholicism is an unconditional, lifetime membership fraternity. It is a dynamic body of like minded people ascribing to a narrow definition of God's words. If you choose to not follow the teachings and dogma, please do not refer to yoursef as a Catholic.

[BlackElk]

You and I evidently do not share a Faith. My Faith is Roman Catholicism. Yours appears to be the trend of the week club ("harmless modernization"). We certainly do not share a deity either as you point out. The God of Moses, the God of Abraham, the God of the entire Scripture and of the Catholic Faith is the God Who always was, always will be and always REMAINS THE SAME. The world may change but God does not change, not even to suit your search for poltical correctness to overcome His Church. Some, not you, have posted here that they were in such a feminist snit over perceived inequality of the sexes in the Roman Catholic Church that they have walked away from it. In your #33, you have expressed views not exactl on point but effectively quite similar in tone in support of the eternal liberal itch that can never be scratched.

The line about nothing mattering so long as one's heart is pure has a name, not a very good name. It is religious indifferentism. Further, one who appears to create God in his own image and likeness has forgotten that it was God Who created each of us in HIS own image and likeness. See the First Commandment. Repeat, as often as necessary until you get the picture.

God is not offended by altar girls but they are hardly a necessity. Novelty for its own sake, much less for the sake of some phony notion of "equality", is no friend of Catholicism or Catholics.

When women walk away from the Church over "equality", they walk away from the Church. Each has that civil right but none will be justified in claiming that the Church walked away from them.

Your post is yet another proof of the deep need of the American Catholic Church's to be thoroughly purged and purified by the Vatican of its Kumbaya elements, particularly in diocesan or parish authority.

[RaginCajunTrad]

"Next thing you know we will all be wearing hats and veils again."

My wife, two of my grown daughters, and their daughters were veils and/or hat. It was their doing, not anyone else's. They like it and think it is proper.

My wife is very offended at the suggestion of some that she, as a woman, may need to hear "inclusive-language" translations. She always felt she was included when she heard "mankind" and other such words that have been deemed to be "exclusive" or "discriminatory."

[Desdemona]

Since I am my worst critic and I don't stop until it's perfect....

Sorry, old habits from math and english class drummed in by the Catholic school teachers, particularly the nuns, die hard.

[Aliska]

Did the nuns really teach her that? Because if they did, those nuns were wrong.

Maybe they were wrong but that's how people thought at the time and some still do. That's from the catechism of life and social norms.

[Phantom Lord]

If you choose to not follow the teachings and dogma, please do not refer to yoursef as a Catholic. I guess the priests who enjoyed molesting boys for decades (and those who endorsed it through inaction) were following the teachings and dogma of the church.

[Desdemona]

Don't have to look pretty.

Sorry. As a rule I always look pretty.

[Revelation 911]

So refreshing from all the apostate Protestant service I normally run across amongst your liberal "be nice is all that matters" crowd in middle and upper middle class environs.

charming bit of brotherhood and humility you have there.

[ArrogantBustard]

I am stating some truths opinions about sexism in the cChurch that evidently some of you don't want to hear agree with.

There. Much more accurate.

[Loyalist]

Much of the commentary on this thread demonstrates that many who sit on the political right also sit on the Catholic left.

[Aliska]

What "sexism" are you talking about, besides the fact that women can not become priests?

The kind of sexism where people who say women cannot become priests because they don't want women priests because that would upset their applecart. Deep down they SEEM to believe that they are spiritually superior to women. That's the message I pick up on these forums.

[Marysecretary]

I have heard many beautiful soloists but the one that made me cry and made me remember it the most, was an older woman who sang at a Christian Women's meeting when the soloist didn't show up. She did a simple hymn, not very well, but it was anointed and it brought tears to my eyes. I'll never forget her.

[passive1]

Surveys of Catholic priests have found that as many as 85% of them began as altar servers. It is well known that many priests were influenced to a priestly vocation because of serving at the altar. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?

[rdb3]

Okay, are you willing to go along with what Scripture proscribes in other areas as well? According to St. Paul women should cover their heads.

Yes. I have no problem(s) with that.

[RaginCajunTrad]

"...harmless modernizations of the Mass and nothing more."

The whole problem with these novelties of the Novus Ordo is that of the heresy of modernism. It is an attempt to conform the Church to the world rather than the world to the Church (and to Christ).

"The Vatican's continued insistence that women are 2nd-class citizens..."

The Vatican is not insisting that women are 2nd-class citizens. Quite the opposite. The Vatican realizes that there is a separation in the roles of men and women. It is very elementary and the modern unisex society has skewed the roles and acceptance thereof.

[My back yard]

Those people's criticisms I just let roll off.

I've done a lot of volunteer work. And i have a tack I take with critics. Those who complain get assigned to the forming of a resolution.

"you know, I've been troubled by that too. Would you please tend to this problem?"

Hah, they either do or don't, and I usually am never bothered by them again. ;)