No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[presidio9]

I mean, people, read the actual primary source when it's published, and lets talk about that.

I got the sense that the article in question was published in Eye-talian. Non parlo italiano.

[harbingr]

May I suggest your perusing the following monumental work; Chapter II of the book, Revolution and Counter-Revolution', by Brazilian Catholic author, P. Carrea de Oliveira:...

The Apogee and The Crisis of the Third Revolution

This chapter discusses the Vatican Ostpolitik and the 'smoke of Satan' that has entered the Church...

The main web site is:...

Tradition Family, and Property

[Marysecretary]

You're right, Phantom Lord. I'm glad it's finally come into the light where it can be revealed and hopefully resolved. We all know that most Catholic priests are good men. It's always the rotten ones that get the spotlight. God's judgement always begins with the church.

[miss marmelstein]

Look, if you wanna listen to your therapist tell you her troubles, I say, Go for it!

[Aliska]

You would rather spend ETERNITY without God because you read a stupid book about a nun kissing the steps a priest walked up? Man...you DO need that therapist!!! Think about what you have written.....REALLY. It's absurd.

I feel sorry for you. You and people like you are the biggest reason I don't want to go to church and I do not want to spend an eternity with people like you as that would be hell.

[Alberta's Child]

These joyful noises are spoken of as if spontaneous praise. Telling parishoners not to do so squelches spontaneous praise.

Nobody has ever said that the Mass is supposed to be "spontaneous praise" in the first place. The fact that religious services are scheduled at specific times, and held according to a specific set of prayers and rubrics, would indicate that they are very clearly not spontaneous.

Anyone who wants to engage in spontaneous worship can just as easily do it outside on the street -- you don't even need to be in a church building.

[american colleen]

Its funny that Catholic women will abide the rule of veiling and modest dress for meeting the Pope, but not for meeting Christ in the Eucharist.

I'm with ya on this. We dress better for our kids school events, weddings, funerals and even just to "shop" than we do for Mass.

[irish_links]

You're welcome. Thanks to you for contributing to this interesting thread. I hope that it serves the purpose of unity among all Christians, something for which all practicing Catholics pray.

[Desdemona]

What I am not, is putting my needs ahead of everyone else's. That only works for me if you're lying in a hospital bed.

My help has come from prayer. There is no man out there who can do my work for me. It is mine to do. I rarely accept help from other people and usually resent it when they think I can't do it myself (with a few exceptions, like changing a tire and cutting the grass, being allergic to grass).

You had a father who was considerate. There are many men out there who are as well, you just have to look for them. Some of the most inconsiderate people I know are those pushing for equality of the sexes. Well, we're not equal. Plain and simple. We were made for different purposes, just as some of us have talents different than others.

The trick is to find God's place for you in the order of things, be happy there and not make everyone else miserable along the way. Something I learned by being made miserable by unhappy people.

[Marysecretary]

That's what I love about my church. The joy in worship is precious. Our children wave banners, they dance with the adults and are being taught to love worshipping. It's coming back to the churches after many years.

[BlessedBeGod]

Next thing you know we will all be wearing hats and veils again.

I, and a number of others who go to Mass where I go, do wear a veil.

[NYer]

I spent 45 years as an Anglican in an "high episcopal church" and ended switching to RC because of the female priest issue

There are several Anglican converts in the Religion forum who are fortunate to be members of an Anglican Use Catholic Church. Click on the link below. It will take you to Our Lady of the Atonement in Austin, TX.

Our Lady of the Atonement is the Founding Parish for the Anglican Use Liturgy within the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, and is one of several personal parishes in the United States which was established under the terms of the Pastoral Provision granted by Pope John Paul II in 1980. As an Anglican Use parish, we retain many elements of Anglican liturgy and traditions in worship, while remaining fully Catholic. All Catholics are welcome to take a full and active part in parish life and worship.

OUR LADY OF THE ATONEMENT

[Aliska]

Out of my 50 minutes I can appreciate one minute of her revealing her human side. The county pays for it. Who wants to talk to a stone?

[BlessedBeGod]

I really can't believe people can get so upset about someone clapping the house of God. I don't think He's asleep, so it's okay to wake Him up with a glad sound.

When they clap, they're not clapping for God -- they're clapping for themselves. It takes the focus off of God during the time we're supposed to be worshipping him, not ourselves.

[Aquinasfan]

"True Liturgical Reform in the Cathoic Church in the United States will only begin when the Last Guitar is smashed over the head of the Last Liturgist."

Kumbaya, baby!

[Desdemona]

Hey, you didn't ping me!

I don't have a problem with hats and veils and I always wear feminine clothes, but not revealing to church. My hair is long and I've had to fight off all sorts of well meaning women to keep it that way.

I've never worn gloves, they were before my time, but there is something to keeping hands nice at least. There are ways to deal with work roughened hands.

Frankly, when you look like a lady, you're treated like one. And there is nothing wrong with looking your best for the Lord.

[american colleen]

Aliska, you gotta let this go... conversion is dying to oneself... if you put the past behind you and focus on Him and not what happened to you in the past or what your therapist told you (I wouldn't give a dime to a therapist when Confession is free and freeing - plus, what makes a therapist so much smarter than you and your common sense?) and focus on what He has done for us, you will slowly and surely forget about yourself! All of us have *crud* - it's the human condition - but someday we will go to our real home - which isn't here on earth. But you know that!

I hope and pray you go back to Mass. I'll say a rosary tonight for your intentions.

[evets]

For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.

1Corinthians 11

... because of the angels...

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Hey, you didn't ping me!

Sorry, sorry, sorry! 1000 Pardons!

[dangus]

Sorry, but I gotta disagree with you. At every parish I've been to that allows altar girls, they quickly become almost *exclusively* altar girls. The outfits (cassoks?) look like dresses to the modern adolscent, and the only way to make it culturally tolerable for boys to participate is to make it a male institutions.

Its a choice: all girls or all boys. And seeing how the role of altar server was originally to be performed by a deacon or priest (only going lay as the deaconate and priesthood declined), it makes sense to be all boys.