BISHOPS CONSIDER CHANGES IN MASS

The Troy Record ^ | November 12, 2002 | Anne Fullam

[NYer]

WASHINGTON - A sweeping change in how Catholics kneel, sit and stand during Mass is about to take place after the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops votes Tuesday on a revised translation into English from Latin of the church's instructions for saying Mass. After five years of review, the "Lectionary for Mass," used by priests, deacons and lay ministers in the Latin Church to say Mass, is ready to be adopted. New missals carrying the new instructions will appear in pews in about a year.
"The person in the pew will see changes in about one year," said Bishop Howard J. Hubbard of Albany. "The changes are more relative to posture at Mass, standing, sitting and kneeling."
For some churches in the diocese, it may mean returning kneelers to the backs of pews or attaching them to the chairs that are used.
"We have to take a look at churches with no kneelers," said Hubbard. "Once we get it, we will have a committee study it and figure out how to implement it."
One such church is St. James in Chatham, where a decade ago, the interior was renovated from its 19th century Gothic and 1970s modernistic phase into a blend of early church architecture that included no kneelers on the backs of the circular benches.
"The question is if you're in the Papal facility, we do what we're told," said Rev. Gary Gelfenbien, pastor of St. James. "The only question we have, if most of the church stands, why do we kneel in the U.S.?"
While nobody seemed sure on how the practice of kneeling in America got started, in Italy, parishioners stand. Some Italian churches have no pews. People press around the altar in loose groupings.
The adopted document is a revision of a 1969 statement by the U.S. Bishops that kneeling best reflects an attitude of reverence during the Eucharistic prayer, the most sacred part of the Mass.
"The universal law is standing or kneeling," said Hubbard. "What is the best posture to express reverence? In the U.S., the bishops voted for kneeling. In Europe, it's standing. The thinking about standing is that the whole congregation is united with the priest in the standing posture. And, the cathedrals were built without pews. In the U.S., kneeling, the passive posture, is considered more reverential.
"I personally feel that it should be either or, but that's not the will of the majority," he added. "They've said it should be kneeling."
Gathered for four days to vote on a host of documents that includes the revised norms for dealing with clergy sexual abuse of minors, the nearly 200 Catholic bishops from all of the dioceses across the country are looking at protection for abused women, Mexican migrants and Hispanic ministry and a recommitment by the Catholic Church to caring for the nation's hungry and poor.
Moving with customary glacial speed, the revised missal has been undergoing redacting for five years.
The changes are the first major revisions since 1975 to the English translation of the Latin Mass used in the U.S.
Other documents to be voted upon on today seem to be focused on the Hispanic minority in the American Church.
"When I Call For Help," a pamphlet first introduced about a decade ago to be placed in the back of churches, also is undergoing changes. "Priests talked about it, and it gave women permission to talk about it," said Hubbard. The pamphlet is being updated.
Other Hispanic-related documents include "Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope, A Pastoral Letter Concerning Migration for from the Catholic Bishops of Mexico and the U.S." and "Encuentro and Mission: A Renewed Pastoral Framework for Hispanic Ministry."
"Ethnic culture, we have a commitment to the poor and alienated," said Hubbard. "We forget earlier generations' immigrants, and we moved on."
"Those who are one or two generations removed forget what it was like for their ancestors," said Hubbard.
While Hispanic women seem to view the church as a champion of the rights of women in protecting them from machismo, Anglo women fault the church for doing more to support their gifts and expand the roles they play in parish life.
However, one document the bishops will vote upon concerns all Catholic women across ethnic lines. It is "A Matter of the Heart," from the Pro-Life Committee. The document was proposed at this time in recognition of the upcoming 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade on Jan. 22.
In essence, the document reiterates the church's stand. "If a woman is pregnant and in need of help, the church and its ministries will help her, with compassion and without condemnation." The statement also calls for Roe v. Wade to be reversed.

[Dajjal]

What's the difference between a Mason and a modern liturgist?
Ad Orientem
Tuesday, September 24, 2002
by Mark C. N. Sullivan

Must be the handshake. Because the tastes in ritual-space design are remarkably similar.

Carrie Tomko, in a comment on [this post], notes the similarity between the modern Catholic liturgists' un-sanctuary and the
Masonic altar here.

Note the altar placement in these rooms of the Philadelphia Masonic Temple -- quite a remarkable building, really, in an over-the-top rococo-faux-Babylonian sort of way.

Renaissance Hall

Corinthian Hall

Egyptian Hall

Now compare the

Gothic Hall of the Pennsylvania Grand Lodge and the

Immaculate Conception Catholic Church, of Las Vegas, New Mexico,
as renovated by the liturgical-design firm RD Habiger & Associates.

[excerpt]

[FBDinNJ]

Woah, did you go to the web page of the Philadelphia Masons? What exactly are these masons doing with/in these temples?

[american colleen]

bunch of posturing ignoramuses

LOL!

I think it is a great benefit to us as well, it's just that I feel uncomfortable that our shepherds, our spiritual leaders, feel the need to televise events that seem more like the Watergate hearings than followers of Jesus Christ... too much paper and too much minutiae.

You do pick up some things, though. To my ear, the more conservative bishops seem to have the upper hand... even Mahony seemed more unctuously servile today.

I noticed an interesting (to me) detail at the end of todays meeting. The regions got mixed up and a couple of states were listed in two different regions. One of the bishops (Sullivan?) picked up on it and made an announcement to Gregory. The bishop said to Gregory "we don't want to lose them!" and Gregory replied "maybe they've already separated!" (or similar words) to laughs... seemed to me that "schism" is on everyone's mind, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

Supposedly they have 118 of 119 signatures needed to hold the plenary meeting and it looks like the more conservative bishops are leading that charge. Interesting.

[american colleen]

What exactly are these masons doing with/in these temples?

If I told you, I'd have to kill you... unless you know the secret handshake...

[Antoninus]

I don't know - I've been to Eastern Europe and the churches I visited have kneelers. How many have been to Europe and can vouch for the fact that the custom is to stand? I don't buy it.

I seem to remember kneelers at Santa Maria Sopra Minerva in Rome, the Duomo in Florence, and San Nicolo in Bari. Any one else?

[Antoninus]

Ping....

[Antoninus]

Supposedly they have 118 of 119 signatures needed to hold the plenary meeting and it looks like the more conservative bishops are leading that charge. Interesting.

Let's hope so! We need to keep praying.

[longtermmemmory]

I have it!!!!

Video tape the service and once a week rent the service from blockbuster video club.

How about a concesion DURING THE SERVICE? like a baseball game.

Or just before communion is offered. The congregation does THE WAVE!

wait there's more we can do:

take out the dusty old hyms and put in rave music.
forget candles they are so 1st century, we now use glow sticks!

Priestly robes out, liberache rhinestones in (keeping with present state of priests)

No more chanting, instead priests RAP (get those young people)

a drive through communion.

automated confession machine which has pre-programed penitance.

an electronic sign ticker which has the postings of football/baseball/hockey games to keep you informed during the service.

Admission/cover charge to enter for service.

a full liquor bar with pew drink service.

last but not least the service will be cut to 15 minutes flat with a count down clock to conclusion.

[ninenot]

I do find it to be a very interesting glass

...half cloudy, half clear?

[ninenot]

I'll ask St. Thomas More

More. Is that one-half of Moral? Nooo, he was REALLY moral, just Moreso.

[Desdemona]

With the exception of the full bar (2-1, Bombay-Vermouth, two olives, straight up please) don't give them any ideas.

[Desdemona]

seem to remember kneelers at Santa Maria Sopra Minerva in Rome, the Duomo in Florence, and San Nicolo in Bari. Any one else?

Yep. Also:

St. Peter's - Rome
Basilica San Marco - Venice
Notre Dame - Paris
Wiesskirke (Rococco era) - Austria
This other little church in Amsterdam

and St. Andreas in Montecarlo in Tuscany where I stayed for a month.

In Pisa and Lucca, I don't remember.

[ELS]

YUCK!!

Choir Storage Room

What's that?? Is it where they store the choir whe they're not singing? ;-)

[ELS]

YUCK!!

Choir Storage Room

What's that?? Is it where they store the choir whe they're not singing? ;-)

[saradippity]

"unctiously servile",I like it!!!My friend just called and he is bringing the tapes over.

Went to a Board meeting tonight and was talking to the chairman,a very bright,young Catholic lawyer.I think he is 42,anyway we discussed the election and I mentioned that I was not happy that our new Governor,who is a lesbian.He winced and told me that he had no problem with that,that most of the homosexuals he knew were easier to be with than heterosexuals (which he is),were generally better people,more well informed and had a right to love.

I said I was particularly opposed to sex education in schools because they were selecting the information that portrayed the life style in a positive way and omitting information, that was factual,that demonstrated how dangerous the "preference" was to their health and safety. I said that my children had learned in school that my smoking was very dangerous and that I would die earlier than a non smoker.In fact,my expected life span was seven years shorter than the average non-smoker.When they were little they worried,now they buy me cigarettes and See's candy.

I asked him why children were not apprised of the greatly reduced life span of both homosexuals and lesbians which averages about 26 years less than the average. He was quite shocked and then said that there was a difference since smoking was a choice. But he did then seem to be a little pensive and thoughtful. I hope it works its way into his knowledge bank.

That's what is so awesome about faith and reason.Truth and science will always at some point validate the other.My personal theory is that a scientist,who goes it without praying to God for guidance will always discover something,that even though it eventually proves true,will create incredible havoc and chaos that would have not occurred had he prayed. It might have been something that came far too early for mankind and that 100 years later it could have been discovered and used with nary a bad consequence.Oh well,here I am two phone calls later and this doesn't make too much sense but I am not going to try to express it any better. Going to go watch the "show".

[RobbyS]

Large medieval churches were public halls. The reason why they have large doors was that the nobility could ride their horses inside. They didn't have pews or seats because they were intended to hold large crowds. But what does all this have to be with whether we have kneelers or not. Why make someone's grandmother change the way she has worshipped all her like just so some priest can feel good about himself. If we are simply trying to be reasonable, then we might point out that kneeling is a more natural way of praying than standing, but if standing we should learn to bow deeply rather than just depressing our chin slightly when in the presence of God.

[RobbyS]

Who is going to choose the staff to prepare the meeting of the synod?

[RnMomof7]

Very protestant looking..but you need PADDED chairs..

[PFKEY]

Is a persons salvation dependent on whether they kneel, stand or sit? Why does the church concern itself with matters of no importance? Or is this the tradition thing again?

[Desdemona]

Is it where they store the choir whe they're not singing?

It CAN get cramped...

What I want to know is why they need a bride's room.