BISHOPS CONSIDER CHANGES IN MASS

The Troy Record ^ | November 12, 2002 | Anne Fullam

[sinkspur]

Is a persons salvation dependent on whether they kneel, stand or sit?

No.

Why does the church concern itself with matters of no importance? Or is this the tradition thing again?

Bureaucracies meddle in insignificancies. It's the nature of people with nothing better to do.

[Desdemona]

But what does all this have to be with whether we have kneelers or not. Why make someone's grandmother change the way she has worshipped all her like just so some priest can feel good about himself.

I'm on the kneeling side of the argument. The point about the Cathedrals in Europe is that where Mass is celebrated there are benches or chairs with wooden kneelers in front of them. People were told that this was not the case. They heard lies. I have a problem with that.

And to tell you the truth, my grandmother would have a stroke if she couldn't kneel at the Consecration - unless the bishop says she can't. And then she follows blindly, even if she doesn't like it.

[Desdemona]

Bureaucracies meddle in insignificancies. It's the nature of people with nothing better to do.

True, but in this case, we're talking about reverence for God. We kneel for no one else.

[RobbyS]

Well, I went to mass in many German Churches during the years I lived there and I can't recall any without kneelers. By the way, the church I went to mass in two years ago, one just off the Ku-damm in Berlin, had been renovated with a beautifully designed golden tabernacle on a platform behind the altar.

[Desdemona]

Well, I went to mass in many German Churches during the years I lived there and I can't recall any without kneelers.

That's just it. See, my mother and her friends are the Liturgy Committee in their parish and the church is currently being renovated. The pastor pushed for no kneelers because "there are no kneelers in Europe" or "they don't kneel in Europe." None of those people have ever been there. How would they know that they are hearing a false claim?

THAT is my problem. Lies. False statements. Half truths. Because I specifically remember the wavy kneelers in the transcept in the Basilica San Marco in Venice where there is Eucharistic Adoration. I was so stiff when I stood up.

In the end, the parishoners at my parents' parish insisted on maintaining kneeling. Good thing, too.

[ninenot]

What I want to know is why they need a bride's room

To store the bride in, of course.

BTW, not only is the choir store-room cramped--it is smelly.

[ninenot]

THAT is my problem. Lies. False statements. Half truths

Take it from me--I know.

Liberals LIE ALL THE TIME. They are the ones about whom it is said: 'you know they're lying---their lips are moving.'

Had one here as Abp. for 26 years.

[Desdemona]

BTW, not only is the choir store-room cramped--it is smelly.

And the dust-bunnies....

[k omalley]

Germany, Spain, Portugal--all had kneelers. Another argument that I have heard against kneeling is that the Orthodox stand during their liturgy. Well, that is their tradition. Suppose they were told tomorrow that from now on they are to kneel. I think that they would rightfully be a little upset at the sudden change and would certainly question it.

[ninenot]

Oh.

[ninenot]

Particularly if it were a bunch of pointy-headed homosexuals who issued the orders....

[Siobhan]

How to obtain a group IQ:

Take the lowest IQ in the group,

divide by the number of people present,

and presto! you have the group IQ.

[Siobhan]

I can safely be described as a cynic when it comes to certain prelates, Hubbard being one, and a hopeless optimist when it comes to other things. I guess I don't really know how full the glass is, but I do find it to be a very interesting glass.

A dribble glass at that.

[Siobhan]

I don't know - I've been to Eastern Europe and the churches I visited have kneelers. How many have been to Europe and can vouch for the fact that the custom is to stand? I don't buy it.

Don't buy it. It is a lie.

[Siobhan]

There are kneelers in every church in Europe I have ever been in. There were kneelers in our parish in Amsterdam. There are kneelers in every church in Spain and Portugal I ever saw. Every church in France in which I prayed, and the Cathedral in Genève, Switz. and on and on. They all had kneelers, and if it was a large space like a Cathedral, the faithful would kneel on the hard pavement without a second thought.

[NYer]

There are kneelers in every church in Europe I have ever been in.

With the exception of the Vatican in Rome, Notre Dame in Paris, the Duomo in Florence, the common use, catholic churches I attended in Italy, France, Denmark and England, all were equipped with kneelers.

This is a photo of a well known jazz organist, taken inside Santa Maria delle Rose in Bonefro, Italy. I used to attend mass in this medieval church - notice the kneelers! They've been there since the church was built.

[Askel5]

I miss St. Patrick's.

I attended the Rosary and vigil this evening for a Monsignor who said the Mass at our family reunion over a decade ago and who -- himself -- was responsible for the founding and constructing of several parishes in this area. Incredible man. Irish by birth. Faithful servant.

I was so relieved the pastor of the parish these days didn't lead the Rosary or say a few words but left it to a priest for whom the Monsignor served as both spiritual and literal father from the time of his first Communion and the death of his own Dad.

For the pastor approves of altar girls and applause after a soloist in the choir belts out "Eye on the Sparrow" during the Gospel entertainment after the Eucharist. The topic of abortion ruins his "Happy Happy Happy" appeal at the mic. He's got those music issues whose topics include "Horrors of War" but not "Benediction". And he's a total dimwit whose theme a fortnight ago was "being a leader" as the Gospel exhorted us to take the last seat at the table.

I forget how spoiled I am at home but try to remember Belloc (I think) and his exhortation to purposefully attend Mass where the cavalier attitude of others, the ugliness of building, the inappropriateness of the priest's style, etc. make it all the more difficult to concentrate ... testing your ability to remember where you are, in what you are participating and Whom it is you've come to adore.

I usually fail miserably, one way or another. Just this evening, as a matter of fact. Not only did I sing the old words to the now-neutered Prayer of St. Francis, as we launched into the one traditional O Sanctissima (O Salutaris was in English; no Tantum Ergo), I hissed to my aunt: "Finally ... that's more like it ... I'm so sick of this New Age crap."

Trust all is well with you. I'm a little out of pocket these days.

BTW ... never let it bother you some hound of hell's seeking to sink a fang or two in you. Just means you must be doing something right. Either it's a good sign in that someone out there's attacking you rather than risking an examination of conscience and you can just offer it up or you've simply got the unwanted attentions a truly lost one and getting a taste of the hell they seek to impart to all. (I feel sometimes like they're bucking for a jump in rank walking in the door of Hell. I can't imagine it's a pleasure to sharpen the claws thus in your fellow humans all the time but Lord knows there appears no limit to the truly perverse in this plane. Either way, not your problem, nothing to be done but pray for them as you endeavor to ignore their more fetid spew.)

[Domestic Church]

" And he's a total dimwit whose theme a fortnight ago was "being a leader" as the Gospel exhorted us to take the last seat at the table."
What if this obtuse approach is calculated ? It happens too often.

"...never let it bother you some hound of hell's seeking to sink a fang or two in you"

Thanks for the gems... much needed advice all around these days! I know I've hit the "dryness" here even with all the rain.