Posted on 10/07/2002 1:03:41 PM PDT by Polycarp
This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:
Current status of Mary:
Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status.
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
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1. Mary is the Mother of God. |
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2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life. |
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
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3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE. |
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4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1 |
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
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In ancient times:
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1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1 | ||||||
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1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1 | ||||||
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Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part:
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1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4 | ||||||
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1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1 | ||||||
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1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1 |
Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
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Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption. |
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Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces. |
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Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments. |
If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6
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Do people need Mary to find Jesus?
How (in practical terms ) does the difference express itself?
So when the question comes of how Jesus was able to be fully human without succumbing to the curse of Original Sin, there are two options here presented: that Christ was essentially placed in Mary's womb as a fully fertilized egg to which Mary contributed no genetic material, or God chose to bend His own rules and "suspend" the curse He placed upon the human race (or rather that the race brought upon itself).
Greek and Roman mythology tell of Gods coming down and having sex with humans, and essentially that's what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception puts forth. I have every respect for Mary as a saint and a good example of submission to the will of God. It's the Roman Marian doctrines to which I am hostile.
As a Catholic I believe you see this as Mary's decision..(I believe that God made her in such a way that she would say yes..that she was His elect...but that is a different issue:>)
If you believe it was completely under Mary's control ..what if she had said NO...would Jesus Not have come?
To which I would reply: "If you could have created your sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters (and co-heirs) with your firstborn Son, and preserved them from original sin, would you? Of course you would! Could you? No, you couldn't! But God could have (according to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception)...and DIDN'T!"
There are no parts to the Blessed Trinity. God is One. The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father. There are 3 Divine Persons who are the One True God. This is THE central mystery of God's Revelation to us. We cannot comprehend this Truth, but only believe it because God revealed it to us.
..Jesus...is the Father...
Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of the Father become man, and therefore is also, at one and the same time, truly the Son of Mary. He is not the Father.
I think Gophack was making a very common sense statement, believed by the Church since the earliest Centuries of the Church, that honor of Mary leads to a deeper relationship with her Son, Jesus Christ, to whom she always points: "Do whatever He tells you".
Rabbi sandyeggo said, Now this is nice and so peaceful. Why would anyone have a problem with this?
Rabbi RnMomof7 said, Well I do. You can see Arminius constructed it, it's foundation is not firm, Oy vey!
Rabbi xzins said, That's a lie! Your contractor Calvin burned up the first one we built anyhow.
Rabbi the_doc said, Loonie psychotic that I am, I'm going to find who did this and chop off their hands and feet!
Rabbi Orthodox Presbyterian said, Hmmmm, hands and feet, I'm hungry, I think I will just bite off a toe.
Rabbi Wrigley said to Rabbi CCWoody, I just don't know why God allows this.
Rabbi restornu said to Wrigley, Now don't blame God Wriggles, after all he's only human!
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one..
Scott bends the word to fit his theology as I proved on another thread..He is a man that likes getting attention a token convert ...my guess unregenerate..
Sure, if it would really annoy you, I'd be glad to.
What is wrong with addressing a teaching?
The argument is this: "As Son, Jesus would have preserved His mother from all ill."
How do you approach it?
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Ye of children of little understanding
John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jesus Father was once as Jesus was and showed him all things!
I Tim 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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