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Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

Posted on 10/07/2002 1:03:41 PM PDT by Polycarp

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

bullet 1. Mary is the Mother of God.
bullet 2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:

bullet 3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
bullet 4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

bullet In ancient times:
bullet St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
bullet St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
bullet St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1
bullet 1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1
bullet 1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1
bullet Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 
bullet "Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2  
bullet "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3
bullet 1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4
bullet 1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1
bullet 1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

bullet Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
bullet Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
bullet Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; ratzinger
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161 posted on 10/08/2002 9:39:12 AM PDT by William McKinley
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
No. Co-redemptrix is Latin meaning with the redeemer. The Blessed Virgin Mary helps lead people to Christ. The Blessed Virgin Mary has a unique role in the redemption accomplished by her Son, Jesus Christ, the divine Redeemer.

Do people need Mary to find Jesus?

162 posted on 10/08/2002 9:39:40 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Desdemona
So do you believe, like Bishop Alfonse di Ligouri, the Societies of Mary, and most Catholics, that there are two paths to
salvation, one through Jesus and the other through Mary? And
that she is more loving and merciful than Jesus and able
to impose her decisions upon him? Is Mary another way to
heaven for those who don't want to go through Jesus? Was
Jesus lying when he said that there is no way to the Father except through him?

163 posted on 10/08/2002 9:42:35 AM PDT by Woodkirk
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To: TotusTuus
Are you referring to the difference between veneration and adoration? The worship of Adoration is due to God alone as Creator and Lord of all Creation, the honor of veneration is given to God's Saints, recognizing His Grace working through them.

How (in practical terms ) does the difference express itself?

164 posted on 10/08/2002 9:49:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
This comes from a false understanding on their part of Jesus' conception. If I may put it in medical terms, Mary acted effectively as a surrogate mother for a Second Adam. As Adam was not a product of procreation, neither was Jesus. The notion of "suspending" the effects of Original Sin is ludicrous and makes a mockery of the notion of a just God. If God can suspend original sin in one person, why not all, and why did His Son have to die for it? Mary bore Jesus in the sense that Jesus grew in her womb, she went through labor and gave birth to Him, and raised and nurtured Him.

So when the question comes of how Jesus was able to be fully human without succumbing to the curse of Original Sin, there are two options here presented: that Christ was essentially placed in Mary's womb as a fully fertilized egg to which Mary contributed no genetic material, or God chose to bend His own rules and "suspend" the curse He placed upon the human race (or rather that the race brought upon itself).

Greek and Roman mythology tell of Gods coming down and having sex with humans, and essentially that's what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception puts forth. I have every respect for Mary as a saint and a good example of submission to the will of God. It's the Roman Marian doctrines to which I am hostile.

165 posted on 10/08/2002 9:49:47 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: Salvation
But would Jesus even have been born without His Mother, Mary? with And remember, conceived by the Holy Spirit!

As a Catholic I believe you see this as Mary's decision..(I believe that God made her in such a way that she would say yes..that she was His elect...but that is a different issue:>)

If you believe it was completely under Mary's control ..what if she had said NO...would Jesus Not have come?

166 posted on 10/08/2002 9:53:18 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Xzins, are you walking down Scott Hahn's path to Rome?

The preist's argument may convince Scott and tantalize you but not me. Silence is golden, however I am not gonna make a throne for Mary our of the stuff.

I will honor for what the Bible honors her.



167 posted on 10/08/2002 10:00:05 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins
Then with a twinkle, he said, "Tell him this: If you could have created your mother and preserved her from original sin, would you? Would you?....Of course you would!
"But could you? No, you couldn't! But Jesus could and so Jesus did!"

To which I would reply: "If you could have created your sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters (and co-heirs) with your firstborn Son, and preserved them from original sin, would you? Of course you would! Could you? No, you couldn't! But God could have (according to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception)...and DIDN'T!"

168 posted on 10/08/2002 10:00:39 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: Woodkirk
Why do you insist on asking me this stuff?

Do you know the Apostle's Creed or the Nicean Creed? Those are the statements of belief: One God, Son conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, etc.? That's what I believe. Because if accusing me of believing that one has to go through Mary to God, you may as well accuse me of going through St. Joesph, St. Patrick, St. Cecilia, St. Michael and many others when I ask them to pray for me. None of them are God or Jesus, but they are in heaven with God and Jesus. The go to heaven prayer in the Rosary is:

Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those in need of they mercy. Amen.

The responses in the Litany of Jesus are "have mercy on us" and "O Jesus, deliver us" (plus it's twice as long) Mary and Joseph just have "pray for us". Do you see/understand the difference?

And what part of leave me alone, please, don't you understand?
169 posted on 10/08/2002 10:03:13 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Frumanchu; RnMomof7; drstevej; the_doc; Matchett-PI; Wrigley
So when the question comes of how Jesus was able to be fully human without succumbing to the curse of Original Sin, there are two options here presented: that Christ was essentially placed in Mary's womb as a fully fertilized egg to which Mary contributed no genetic material, or God chose to bend His own rules and "suspend" the curse He placed upon the human race (or rather that the race brought upon itself).

There is a 3rd possibility. Perhaps doc or Matchett will be happy to explain, but I am very busy right now.

Greek and Roman mythology tell of Gods coming down and having sex with humans, and essentially that's what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception puts forth.

Mormon mythology has a version where "Father" Adam beds Mary. At least the Catholics claim to believe what the Bible says; the Mormons have a saying about this: "You may believe what you like with regard to the Bible."
170 posted on 10/08/2002 10:05:16 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: gcruse
If Jesus, as part of the Trinity...

There are no parts to the Blessed Trinity. God is One. The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father. There are 3 Divine Persons who are the One True God. This is THE central mystery of God's Revelation to us. We cannot comprehend this Truth, but only believe it because God revealed it to us.

..Jesus...is the Father...

Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of the Father become man, and therefore is also, at one and the same time, truly the Son of Mary. He is not the Father.

I think Gophack was making a very common sense statement, believed by the Church since the earliest Centuries of the Church, that honor of Mary leads to a deeper relationship with her Son, Jesus Christ, to whom she always points: "Do whatever He tells you".

171 posted on 10/08/2002 10:11:01 AM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: Matchett-PI; xzins; RnMomof7; sandyeggo; restornu; Wrigley; the_doc; drstevej; ...
A group of rabbis were out walking in the countryside one day, discussing whatever it is, rabbis discuss, when they came to a leafy grove wherein there was a little chapel and a sign that said "Dedicated to Mary, Queen of the Perpetual Rosary".

Rabbi sandyeggo said, Now this is nice and so peaceful. Why would anyone have a problem with this?

Rabbi RnMomof7 said, Well I do. You can see Arminius constructed it, it's foundation is not firm, Oy vey!

Rabbi xzins said, That's a lie! Your contractor Calvin burned up the first one we built anyhow.

Rabbi the_doc said, Loonie psychotic that I am, I'm going to find who did this and chop off their hands and feet!

Rabbi Orthodox Presbyterian said, Hmmmm, hands and feet, I'm hungry, I think I will just bite off a toe.

Rabbi Wrigley said to Rabbi CCWoody, I just don't know why God allows this.

Rabbi restornu said to Wrigley, Now don't blame God Wriggles, after all he's only human!

172 posted on 10/08/2002 10:13:40 AM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: JesseShurun
Marvelous insights... may I expand...

Rabbi drstevej said we should be silent to acknowledge the Bible's silence!
173 posted on 10/08/2002 10:19:09 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: JesseShurun
I noticed in your parody that you made Rabbi CCWoody the one with the long donkey ears as he is the only one who is listening. I must be a wise teacher indeed. ;-)
174 posted on 10/08/2002 10:21:48 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: xzins; Dr Steve
So was Saint Anne sinless and was Marys Father sinless?

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one..

Scott bends the word to fit his theology as I proved on another thread..He is a man that likes getting attention a token convert ...my guess unregenerate..

175 posted on 10/08/2002 10:24:40 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Matchett-PI
are you bucking to be the next "infallible" pope?

Sure, if it would really annoy you, I'd be glad to.

176 posted on 10/08/2002 10:27:18 AM PDT by Polycarp
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To: JesseShurun
No that is not what Rabbi Mom would say..she would say that is an abomination to the Glory of God...constructed well before Arminius
177 posted on 10/08/2002 10:28:19 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Frumanchu; drstevej
Exactly, a beginning of an argument.

What is wrong with addressing a teaching?

The argument is this: "As Son, Jesus would have preserved His mother from all ill."

How do you approach it?

178 posted on 10/08/2002 10:37:39 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Polycarp
***Sure, if it would really annoy you, I'd be glad to.***

I suggest taking the name PolyPope I.
Mrs. PolyPope I ought to be quite popular.

BTW, Will you let me hit a bucket of balls on your lawn? I've wanted to do that since I visited the Vatican in 1974. A three par golf course on the grounds would be awesome.


179 posted on 10/08/2002 10:37:45 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: JesseShurun; Matchett-PI; xzins; RnMomof7; sandyeggo; restornu; Wrigley; the_doc; drstevej; ...
Rabbi restornu said to Wrigley, Now don't blame God Wriggles, after all he's only human!

***

Ye of children of little understanding

John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jesus Father was once as Jesus was and showed him all things!

I Tim 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

180 posted on 10/08/2002 10:41:05 AM PDT by restornu
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