Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[William McKinley]

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[RnMomof7]

No. Co-redemptrix is Latin meaning with the redeemer. The Blessed Virgin Mary helps lead people to Christ. The Blessed Virgin Mary has a unique role in the redemption accomplished by her Son, Jesus Christ, the divine Redeemer.

Do people need Mary to find Jesus?

[Woodkirk]

So do you believe, like Bishop Alfonse di Ligouri, the Societies of Mary, and most Catholics, that there are two paths to
salvation, one through Jesus and the other through Mary? And
that she is more loving and merciful than Jesus and able
to impose her decisions upon him? Is Mary another way to
heaven for those who don't want to go through Jesus? Was
Jesus lying when he said that there is no way to the Father except through him?

[RnMomof7]

Are you referring to the difference between veneration and adoration? The worship of Adoration is due to God alone as Creator and Lord of all Creation, the honor of veneration is given to God's Saints, recognizing His Grace working through them.

How (in practical terms ) does the difference express itself?

[Frumanchu]

This comes from a false understanding on their part of Jesus' conception. If I may put it in medical terms, Mary acted effectively as a surrogate mother for a Second Adam. As Adam was not a product of procreation, neither was Jesus. The notion of "suspending" the effects of Original Sin is ludicrous and makes a mockery of the notion of a just God. If God can suspend original sin in one person, why not all, and why did His Son have to die for it? Mary bore Jesus in the sense that Jesus grew in her womb, she went through labor and gave birth to Him, and raised and nurtured Him.

So when the question comes of how Jesus was able to be fully human without succumbing to the curse of Original Sin, there are two options here presented: that Christ was essentially placed in Mary's womb as a fully fertilized egg to which Mary contributed no genetic material, or God chose to bend His own rules and "suspend" the curse He placed upon the human race (or rather that the race brought upon itself).

Greek and Roman mythology tell of Gods coming down and having sex with humans, and essentially that's what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception puts forth. I have every respect for Mary as a saint and a good example of submission to the will of God. It's the Roman Marian doctrines to which I am hostile.

[RnMomof7]

But would Jesus even have been born without His Mother, Mary? with And remember, conceived by the Holy Spirit!

As a Catholic I believe you see this as Mary's decision..(I believe that God made her in such a way that she would say yes..that she was His elect...but that is a different issue:>)

If you believe it was completely under Mary's control ..what if she had said NO...would Jesus Not have come?

[drstevej]

Xzins, are you walking down Scott Hahn's path to Rome?

The preist's argument may convince Scott and tantalize you but not me. Silence is golden, however I am not gonna make a throne for Mary our of the stuff.

I will honor for what the Bible honors her.

[Frumanchu]

Then with a twinkle, he said, "Tell him this: If you could have created your mother and preserved her from original sin, would you? Would you?....Of course you would!
"But could you? No, you couldn't! But Jesus could and so Jesus did!"

To which I would reply: "If you could have created your sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters (and co-heirs) with your firstborn Son, and preserved them from original sin, would you? Of course you would! Could you? No, you couldn't! But God could have (according to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception)...and DIDN'T!"

[Desdemona]

Why do you insist on asking me this stuff?

Do you know the Apostle's Creed or the Nicean Creed? Those are the statements of belief: One God, Son conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, etc.? That's what I believe. Because if accusing me of believing that one has to go through Mary to God, you may as well accuse me of going through St. Joesph, St. Patrick, St. Cecilia, St. Michael and many others when I ask them to pray for me. None of them are God or Jesus, but they are in heaven with God and Jesus. The go to heaven prayer in the Rosary is:

Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those in need of they mercy. Amen.

The responses in the Litany of Jesus are "have mercy on us" and "O Jesus, deliver us" (plus it's twice as long) Mary and Joseph just have "pray for us". Do you see/understand the difference?

And what part of leave me alone, please, don't you understand?

[CCWoody]

So when the question comes of how Jesus was able to be fully human without succumbing to the curse of Original Sin, there are two options here presented: that Christ was essentially placed in Mary's womb as a fully fertilized egg to which Mary contributed no genetic material, or God chose to bend His own rules and "suspend" the curse He placed upon the human race (or rather that the race brought upon itself).

There is a 3rd possibility. Perhaps doc or Matchett will be happy to explain, but I am very busy right now.

Greek and Roman mythology tell of Gods coming down and having sex with humans, and essentially that's what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception puts forth.

Mormon mythology has a version where "Father" Adam beds Mary. At least the Catholics claim to believe what the Bible says; the Mormons have a saying about this: "You may believe what you like with regard to the Bible."

[TotusTuus]

If Jesus, as part of the Trinity...

There are no parts to the Blessed Trinity. God is One. The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father. There are 3 Divine Persons who are the One True God. This is THE central mystery of God's Revelation to us. We cannot comprehend this Truth, but only believe it because God revealed it to us.

..Jesus...is the Father...

Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of the Father become man, and therefore is also, at one and the same time, truly the Son of Mary. He is not the Father.

I think Gophack was making a very common sense statement, believed by the Church since the earliest Centuries of the Church, that honor of Mary leads to a deeper relationship with her Son, Jesus Christ, to whom she always points: "Do whatever He tells you".

[JesseShurun]

A group of rabbis were out walking in the countryside one day, discussing whatever it is, rabbis discuss, when they came to a leafy grove wherein there was a little chapel and a sign that said "Dedicated to Mary, Queen of the Perpetual Rosary".

Rabbi sandyeggo said, Now this is nice and so peaceful. Why would anyone have a problem with this?

Rabbi RnMomof7 said, Well I do. You can see Arminius constructed it, it's foundation is not firm, Oy vey!

Rabbi xzins said, That's a lie! Your contractor Calvin burned up the first one we built anyhow.

Rabbi the_doc said, Loonie psychotic that I am, I'm going to find who did this and chop off their hands and feet!

Rabbi Orthodox Presbyterian said, Hmmmm, hands and feet, I'm hungry, I think I will just bite off a toe.

Rabbi Wrigley said to Rabbi CCWoody, I just don't know why God allows this.

Rabbi restornu said to Wrigley, Now don't blame God Wriggles, after all he's only human!

[drstevej]

Marvelous insights... may I expand...

Rabbi drstevej said we should be silent to acknowledge the Bible's silence!

[CCWoody]

I noticed in your parody that you made Rabbi CCWoody the one with the long donkey ears as he is the only one who is listening. I must be a wise teacher indeed. ;-)

[RnMomof7]

So was Saint Anne sinless and was Marys Father sinless?

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one..

Scott bends the word to fit his theology as I proved on another thread..He is a man that likes getting attention a token convert ...my guess unregenerate..

[Polycarp]

are you bucking to be the next "infallible" pope?

Sure, if it would really annoy you, I'd be glad to.

[RnMomof7]

No that is not what Rabbi Mom would say..she would say that is an abomination to the Glory of God...constructed well before Arminius

[xzins]

Exactly, a beginning of an argument.

What is wrong with addressing a teaching?

The argument is this: "As Son, Jesus would have preserved His mother from all ill."

How do you approach it?

[drstevej]

***Sure, if it would really annoy you, I'd be glad to.***

I suggest taking the name PolyPope I.
Mrs. PolyPope I ought to be quite popular.

BTW, Will you let me hit a bucket of balls on your lawn? I've wanted to do that since I visited the Vatican in 1974. A three par golf course on the grounds would be awesome.

[restornu]

Rabbi restornu said to Wrigley, Now don't blame God Wriggles, after all he's only human!

***

Ye of children of little understanding

John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jesus Father was once as Jesus was and showed him all things!

I Tim 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.