It Was Us Against Them: Does Mahony Want A Priestless Church?

Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission ^ | March, 2001 | Robert Kumpel

[american colleen]

While Father Z isn't sure about Mahony's plans for a priestless Church, he believes the archdiocesan hostility to traditional Catholicism has taken its toll on vocations. "I do know that a lot of priests have left. The cardinal likes a certain kind of priest. You can tell that they don't want vocations, because they do nothing to inspire vocations. He's purposely put a very liberal, feminist Sister (Kathy Bryant) as the vocations person.

"I think if we got a reasonable archbishop of Los Angeles, all of a sudden things would just switch. There's such a small minority of the real liberals and 'protestantized' Catholics that things would switch right away."

If Father Z's assessment of Mahony seems to contradict his gentle public image, Father Z is not alone in his view. Both Father Y and Father Z are firghtened of Mahony and spoke only on assurance of anonymity. "The cardinal is a tough man," one explained. "He will just crush you. He won't stop. I know of a priest who spoke out against something the cardinal was behind and he would not back off until the priest resigned. He even threatened to withdraw financial support. He has a lot of power because Los Angeles is one of the richest dioceses in the world and money is power. That's one of the biggest ways he throws his weight around.

"I pray for a real conversion (for Mahony). If he were to convert he would just be a powerhouse for the Church. He is a very engaging person. When he's in your presence, he really wins you over. He has a way of gauging you and he holds all his cards to his chest. He lets you break the ground and, once that happens, he's very agreeable to whatever you say. Everyone walks away from him saying, 'what a wonderful man!' When you're with him one on one, he really does fool you. It's when you find out what he's done later that you realize what you're dealing with, and it's not gentle. I know a lot of priests who have suffered under him. If you want holy priests, you need a holy bishop."

I attempted several times to reach Sister Kathy Bryant for response. She did not return my phone calls before this article went to press.

[american colleen]

How about an ongoing thread - probably not posted to each day, but a thread for questions and answers that can be resurected and posted to when needed. We could name it Aacme Catholic Questions and Answers or something (kind of kidding here) because if you save it to your profile, it would be the first in the column since the column is alphabetic.

[Salvation]

Pause for a moment and read the Daily Mass Readings for today. Then a little prayer and a decision can be made about the Catholic Caucus.

PS. I am not trying to lecture anyone here; just making a few suggestions.
Salvation

[american colleen]

Finally,I am very upset that Allend is gone,he and I got into a couple of issues wherein we disagreed but he was well informed and appropriate and I would like to know why he is gone.Doesn't anyone else care?I find people who call the Admin.to have prople removed simply childish.You can learn much about men and matters in their exchanges.

I think a few of us did do some inquiry about allend's banning... I like him as well. Here is the response I got from Angelo:

The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Posted by angelo to PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; ksen; ELS; american colleen; All
On Religion Sep 11 1:42 PM #23,847 of 23,880

Well, here's the scoop on allend. From what I have been able to determine, JR is aware of his banning and may personally have been the one to pull his account. He was not banned for any specific violation of forum rules, but rather for expressing political views that are presently out of favor with forum management. I suggested to allend a couple of different options he may wish to pursue. If anyone wishes to discuss this with me further, e-mail me at freeperangelo@yahoo.com.

[american colleen]

I just posted from today's readings (Luke) on another thread ("Pope asks God for forgiveness") - isn't it amazing that so much in today's readings apply so aptly?

[Domestic Church]

"This new phase we've entered, of internecine warfare not with liberals or schismatics but between orthodox members of the faithful remnant itself, is so troubling it can only be seen in apolcalyptic terms. Another sign. Who has eyes to see?"

Yep. I said to another freeper on a prophecy thread who didn't like the ecumenical stuff that at this point that is water under the bridge as the walls between the various churches are going to come down by God's doing not ours and we need to just stay focused on Christ (Eucharist for us), the writings of the early Church(this person probably doesn't have a Catechism to hold tight) and the Holy Bible. O Come, O Come Emmanuel.

[Desdemona]

I'll be honest. I bugged out of this thread when the commentary got away from the original article. It happens everywhere and generally drives me insane. And the things that seem to happen while I'm at rehearsal....

I've admited I don't know much about theology or a good overview of church history - by the time I went through school the phrase "Offer it up" was passe. I only know it because we heard it from Mom 10 times a day. I read these threads to learn and when people start hurling insults at each other, the learning generally stops.

Now that I've read through this one, and after I got that freepmail from Siobhan, some things are becoming very clear - there are a lot of people who don't like to be in the wrong. It's not a comfortable place to be and rubbing it in to another is really mean. There's ways of correcting others which are far more gentle than is demonstrated here. (and what's even worse is being told you're wrong when you KNOW you're right) Just think about that.

This year, we, the faithful have been left to defend the church without any help from it. And let's face it we're all a little angry about that. There's very little help from the hierarchy in many places. Lucky me, I'm in an archdiocese where the worst of the mess has been cleaned up, where the bishop is gently but firmly putting his foot down and stopping the liturgical errors and, frankly, where we are not in any danger of going bankrupt (we have a HUGE endowment carefully collected). I feel for all of you, but you can't let the anger consume and descend into name calling.

Just think about this, from a great theologian, Obi-Wan Kanobi: "Beware of the dark side." (yes, I am a member of the Star Wars cult) It WILL consume you. For the record, has any Catholic theologian said this? Oh, knowledgable ones, please educate the class.

Ooops. That took a long time.

[Salvation]

I would love to ask a question on doctrine or Church history, but I can also find that information from other places.Bump

[Domestic Church]

"I hope to God no lurkers who are on a spiritual search come across this thread. Horrible language, horrible attitudes and less than brotherly love is what they will find."

And it all started with watered down religious training. I discovered how poorly my own was (after 12 years of a supposed top shelf Catholic education) when I read the Catechism cover to cover...why don't the dioceses use that for high school? Why don't they insist on parents using it in Baptismal preparation? ( And don't get me started on subsidiarity and how that's not used!)

[american colleen]

My parish only gives under both species at the weekday Mass. My understanding is that the Eucharist is fully the body and blood of Jesus. But what I don't get is why the chalice is offered only sometimes...

[Domestic Church]

"Given her lack of knowledge of the Catholic faith she obviously doesn't possess the gray matter to be called a heretic,..."

I see a big part of the problem being the watering down of faith on an institutional level. GSG's mistake was just a symptom of the real concern...and anyone coming out of a Catholic highschool could easily make the same mistake...millions of Catholic Americans could easily.

[Askel5]

Yes ... given how splendidly everything was handled, probably no reason to get involved at all.

[Romulus]

Obi-Wan Kanobi: "Beware of the dark side." (yes, I am a member of the Star Wars cult) It WILL consume you. For the record, has any Catholic theologian said this?

Well, Alec Guiness was a Catholic convert. Does that count?

[american colleen]

I would love to ask a question on doctrine or Church history, but I can also find that information from other places.Bump

Absolutely! But sometimes (for me, anyway) the language in official documents is ambiguous and it drives me nuts! Plus I love the human "conversation" we have here.

One question that I had/have that I couldn't find a direct answer to is regarding the end of the Mass. I believe the priest is supposed to say "Mass is ended. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord." Well, at the Mass I most often attend, the priest says "Mass is ended. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord and each other. May his light shine down upon you, May (and he goes on for about 5 more lines)" - so FR is great for things like that when you can't find an answer or the answer you find isn't clear. As an aside, I think the priest might be wrong in my parish because the Masses on EWTN do not end this way. Also, I saw bits and pieces of the 9-11 memorial Masses at St. Pat's in NY and at Our Lady's Cathedral in Washington yesterday... neither of the Cardinals closed the Mass with anything beyond "Mass is ended. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord."

I'm mindful of being too technical... I don't want to be the Catholic police, or something, so maybe I shouldn't be noticing stuff like this, I don't know.

[BlackElk]

Do we detect an irrelevant opinion as to Catholicism by one who not only is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church but does not share (or probably understand) Catholic beliefs on the matter in question on this thread or on the subtext having to do with the necessity of priests?

The Apostles were, each and every one of them priests and bishops. The earliest fragments of the liturgy of the Mass date to approximately 120 AD, when disciples of the Apostles were still in leadership such as St. Ignatius of Antioch. Those fragments are probably older than the earliest existing copies of the books of the New Testament.

It would be more historically accurate to say that the early Christian (i.e Catholic) Church existed without copies or even originals of substantial portions of the New Testament since those portions had yet to be written than to suggest or claim or declaim that it existed without priests.

For example, it is manifestly obvious that the early Christian Church and some of its activities are described in the Acts of the Apostles as history and not as prophecy. Obviously, St. Paul was writing after the facts described. St. Stephen was martyred by Saul and his non-Christian associates before the former Saul could write about the incident as Paul. The Apocalypse or Revelations seems to have been written very late in the first century and after the deaths of most of the twelve Apostles and many of their contemporary priests.

There is a historical continuum that ought to be observed by those who argue in good faith (small f). On a matter of such importance as the Christian Faith, people living in 100 AD had a good idea of what happened in 50 AD and passed it on orally and in writing and discussed such matters as earnestly as we do today. Substitute freely each subsequent 50 year period and cumulate because, just as we care what happened in, say, the 2nd century as to Christianity and Christians, so have our predecessors. In this sense, it is more than a little pretentious to assume that what is not in Scripture did not occur in spite of any and all non-denominational evidence. It would fall into the same category as the calculations of Bishop Usher of the soi disant and misnamed (Anglican) Church of Ireland that the world was created approximately 4,000 B.C because of his wrinkle on the ages and intersections of the lives of the old Testament patriarchs or the idea that dinosaur fossils are a cosmic joke because they could not have existed since the Scriptures fail to mention them.

The answer to your question is: Without those specific priests who are validly consecrated as bishops, there can be no Apostolic Succession. Without Apostolic Succession, there is no authority to ordain priests. Without priests, there will be none of the following sacraments: the Holy Eucharist (and the Real Presence of Jesus Christ: Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity therein), Confirmation, Penance, Holy Orders, Extreme Unction. In such an event, the gates of hell will have prevailed which is impossible because it is guaranteed in the Peter passage of Matthew that they will not and the Scriptures tell no lies.

[Desdemona]

"Well, Alec Guiness was a Catholic convert. Does that count?"

While this is a wonderful fact, George Lucas, I think, probably influenced him here.

Sad, isn't it, that a whole generation grew up learning morals from George Lucas and Jim Henson.

[.45MAN]

I could have been worse....

[Domestic Church]

Priceless...thanks for the much needed humor. Maybe if Polycarp is right and we've entered the time of justice we will have some more *truth* bubbling up on a bigger scale...just picture the big cheese from the previous administration being served!