It Was Us Against Them: Does Mahony Want A Priestless Church?

While Father Z isn't sure about Mahony's plans for a priestless Church, he believes the archdiocesan hostility to traditional Catholicism has taken its toll on vocations. "I do know that a lot of priests have left. The cardinal likes a certain kind of priest. You can tell that they don't want vocations, because they do nothing to inspire vocations. He's purposely put a very liberal, feminist Sister (Kathy Bryant) as the vocations person.

"I think if we got a reasonable archbishop of Los Angeles, all of a sudden things would just switch. There's such a small minority of the real liberals and 'protestantized' Catholics that things would switch right away."

If Father Z's assessment of Mahony seems to contradict his gentle public image, Father Z is not alone in his view. Both Father Y and Father Z are firghtened of Mahony and spoke only on assurance of anonymity. "The cardinal is a tough man," one explained. "He will just crush you. He won't stop. I know of a priest who spoke out against something the cardinal was behind and he would not back off until the priest resigned. He even threatened to withdraw financial support. He has a lot of power because Los Angeles is one of the richest dioceses in the world and money is power. That's one of the biggest ways he throws his weight around.

"I pray for a real conversion (for Mahony). If he were to convert he would just be a powerhouse for the Church. He is a very engaging person. When he's in your presence, he really wins you over. He has a way of gauging you and he holds all his cards to his chest. He lets you break the ground and, once that happens, he's very agreeable to whatever you say. Everyone walks away from him saying, 'what a wonderful man!' When you're with him one on one, he really does fool you. It's when you find out what he's done later that you realize what you're dealing with, and it's not gentle. I know a lot of priests who have suffered under him. If you want holy priests, you need a holy bishop."

I attempted several times to reach Sister Kathy Bryant for response. She did not return my phone calls before this article went to press.

I'm about done with this too, though many have asked me to stay after I said I was leaving last week.

Seriously, no offense but there's really no point in the opus thing.

If it no longer behooves you to hang out, take off and simply keep in touch with those whose associations are a positive thing for you and your faith.

FR's always been a brawl theologically and -- particularly given the toll popularity's taken on decorum -- that deficiency's only been exacerbated.

Quite frankly, as much as I wish we had the time to spoonfeed at our leisure, it's a little late for that. Perhaps it would behoove us to set up a running Catechism thread where the ignorant could ask questions without fear of anything in the least resembling ridicule or censure.

As for the rest, I'd just as soon we had a Patton who could stride down the aisle and slap some sense into those who are wringing their hands and despairing as if this sort of display -- or even our current scandal in the Church -- were the worst of what we're going to confront.

Soldiers with a sense of duty and a recognition that now is not the time to mix it up in the mess hall as much as rely on each other in what is indeed a life or death battle for our own and others' ultimate survival ... that's what we need to be.

No more of the pansy emotionalism, tender egos and need to have our beliefs or feelings "validated" or understood ... particularly when they're dead wrong.

Death to self should be the maxim by which we refuse to take personal offense at anything anyone posts. Regular prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide us might help put into perspective our pride of authorship in these exchanges.

I don't think I need to address how dangerous is the temptation to despair or to fail in our commission to win souls to Christ rather than hide our light in a barrel or -- even worse -- use it to sear the soul of another by bending it through some Personal Magnifying Glass or another.

"Maybe I'm projecting. Maybe not."

You exaggerate the problems IMHO.

"On the heels of Dallas we see not a plan to rid our Church of its sexual immorality."

Yes there is too a plan. Why do you exaggerate?

":but plans to quit evangelizing non-Catholics,"

This is another exaggeration: "Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that Jews already dwell in a saving covenant with God. The Catholic Church must always evangelize and will always witness to its faith in the presence of God's kingdom in Jesus Christ to Jews and to all other people. In so doing, the Catholic Church respects fully the principles of religious freedom and freedom of conscience, so that sincere individual converts from any tradition or people, including the Jewish people, will be welcomed and accepted."

"and committees telling Catholics they may no longer kneel to receive the Real Presence in Holy Communion."

So? Is not kneeling a sin? We SHOULD obey the bishops on this. I do. Does that make me not part of the remnant?

This seems to have become a rather angry thread. When I first came to FR we didn’t have too many intra-Catholic squabbles like this – at least that I still remember (I know, it’s the first thing to go, but I haven’t been here all that long.). There were some exchanges with the schismatic Traditionalists that got nasty, as there are today. Other exchanges with Protestants, especially those who hate the Church, that got nasty as well. These things will never change I suspect.

I don’t recall any like this though, where things devolved all the way among Catholics. In recent months a group of us here began to get pretty close and friendly, some even talking about a Catholic caucus. The reality though is that the FR and the caucus include Catholics with very different views, and we really aren’t united on anything. When the Church goes through hard times like these, fault lines show, people’s words get a little more blunt, people’s skin gets a little thinner, people all over get more defensive. A lot of us feel a great deal of concern over the Church and its direction right now. Personal attacks increase, and its hard not to take offense, its hard to keep that little note of sarcasm from springing into your response, its hard to be charitable to those who have offended you. I can easily say all of these things apply to me, and I think they apply to most of us on this thread right now. I think I’ve seen nearly all of you say things a bit out of character, as have I.

I tend to think this is all natural. As painful as it may be, most of us are under extra stress right now, though we often have different reasons for it. Some of us face financial pressures. Layoffs or fears of layoffs, cash flow crunches, debt. Others are remembering September 11 and those who lost their lives; the possibility of another war, our soldiers’ lives and civilian suffering. For others, the turmoil in the Church strikes at home, the abuse crisis and its ongoing fallout, the modernist abuses, Bishops, priests, etc. All the fault lines become apparent from these things. Others have had family members pass on, are bringing new children into families, are looking at moving, changing jobs, changing parishes. I doubt there are many of us who aren’t a little bit more affected by at least some of these things right now. There is a lot more tension in the air.

The result of that is some of the hostility towards our own. It is pretty common in society in general right now. The Catholics on FR aren’t normally like this. We don’t normally eat our own on these threads like some of the other groups do. Many outsiders have recognized this in the past. They have recognized that Catholics are different, that as a group they treat each other and treat outsiders alike with charity.

These things said, we have always been a diverse group. We have always disagreed with each other on these threads, and these disagreements sometimes become more pointed when one or both of the posters are under some stress, whether from FR related things or things outside of FR. This is no reason to panic. We do need see each other as God’s children at these times. I didn’t learn things about the faith by coming here and having everyone agree with me, and I hope that never happens. I learned, to the extent I have learned, when people debated with me. Sometimes I was right, sometimes wrong. Some did a better job of educating me than others, especially those who did so with the utmost charity. I am forever in their debt, especially for the charitable rebukes.

We have never shared a single common goal here on FR. Some come here to debate. Some come here to evangelize, whether it be the faithless, other Christians, or other Catholics. Some come to learn. Others to talk politics, and from time to time talk religion. Some come for fellowship. Others for a chance to have their ideas tested. We will never be a cohesive group that agrees on much of anything, much less everything. To whatever extent we were a group to start with, we won’t even stay a group for very long. Some people will come, others will go. Some of the Catholics who were synonymous with Catholicism on FR when I joined aren’t here anymore; some are here only sporadically. Some will take breaks, others will leave entirely.

If FR isn’t bringing you closer to God, and especially if it pulls you away, take a break. Come back if it is appropriate, even if just to say hi from time to time, its always nice to see people again. I’m probably not a good example, but FR always does fine when I’m gone, and all the Catholics manage without me. How many even notice my absence? Few, I suspect, can name the last time I took an extended break. (This disappoints my pride to no end, of course.)

The Catholic Church is a very big place. There is a lot of room in it for disagreement. There are some things that are non-negotiable, certainly, and some positions that are harmful to the faith. But most people do not hold to those things. Have some tolerance on others who hold a belief you think is wrong. They may be wrong, they may be harming the faith, but give them a fair chance to understand their error, as each of us have them.

A suggestion, feel free to ignore it. There is nothing to be gained in any further blame on this thread. Who started what or is at fault doesn’t matter any more. The battle lines are drawn, and there won’t be any traitors at this point. Further war just brings further bloodshed. Don’t reply to any posts in the battle, leave them lie.

Rather, apologize to the person, publicly or by freepermail. It doesn’t matter who started it, or even if you weren’t the one in the wrong. If you were uncharitable, just swallow your pride and apologize. This is probably the only thing I’ve managed to learn in marriage. Saying your sorry changes the situation, and allows the other person to consider your viewpoint whereas before they couldn’t hear you at all.

One last thing. We are all baptized here. As such, we are all members of Christ’s body. Treat each other as you would Christ. Sometimes that necessitates hard words, but be clear about why you say them – you should believe they will bring the subject or others closer to God.

Above all, may God bless you all. Good night,

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

patent +AMDG

Sometimes I wish I had your chutzpah.

Lol ... Chutzpah is when I take it upon myself to break up a fight between two perfect strangers (including one 300 pound guy who's rolling up his sleeves) on Bourbon street or stand with a stack of Victrola record in my arms and scream "STOP IT ... STOP IT RIGHT NOW!!" at the merengue toughs who are beating the rastas with broken bottles in my street. =)

I have no idea where comments like the B&N one come from.

While I was exasperated -- was hunting for a political tome and having to pick my way through the African-American, Gay Lesbian, etc. etc. sections -- the comment is more along the lines of yelling "NOW SAY GOODBYE TO KITTY!!" in the parking lot of Silver Dollar City as my baby sister gingerly dropped her plastic barf bag full of soiled paper towels, etc. into a garbage can ... the rolling hills en route from Eureka Springs having proven a little too much after several buttermilk donuts that morning.

Countless tourists making their way to the entrance gates alongside us were AGHAST ... particularly when my family starting laughing so hard tears were rolling down their faces. I can still see my sister's stricken face as she froze for a moment knowing everyone in the parking lot thought she was dumping her dead cat.

(Much the same as T's at Barnes & Noble that day, ELS ... =)

I'm still mad. But its now rolling over into sheer frustration and verging on...not despair...but resignation that NOTHING will change now short of Divine Intervention, and the Church my children will inherit will be one where this crisis is still only beginning to be addressed.

But resignation is not the answer. The Church takes its own sweet time as things get done, and we need to continue praying, pass on the word about the positive to our pastors so that they inform the bishops and cardinals, and then we must continue to pray and repeat the cycle.

Receiving the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Holy Eucharist will assist us as we strive to grow in our faith.

We can not ignore the crisis, but use it as a learning tool. Maybe we just found out that one mode or method does not work in bringing about the changes we desire.

So it is back to the drawing board to look at what we have accomplished here on FR, continue to evaluate, and plan for further or new action.

Above all we must nurture our faith by going back and reading the basics: the Bible, Daily Mass Readings, Aquinas, Augustine and other doctors of the church, not the latest hot book about the Catholic church off the bookstore shelf.

As to the schismatics, I pray for them that they may see the light, and I see a lot of you get discouraged because they refuse to listen and carry on a "give and take" conversation. If our attempts are not working, maybe we need to re-evaluate here also and make a new choice.

Just some observations and suggestions. I am definitely not being critical of anyone. I admire the way all of you stand up for your faith. You have shown me that I can do the same. Thanks and God Bless,
Salvation

I doubt there are many of us who aren’t a little bit more affected by at least some of these things right now. There is a lot more tension in the air.

This is definitely happening. Perhaps some time on our knees or sitting and reading the Bible for 15-20 minutes is what we need during these times of stress.

Some did a better job of educating me than others, especially those who did so with the utmost charity. I am forever in their debt, especially for the charitable rebukes.

This has happened to me, and I appreciate the charitable rebukes (pulling me up by the bootstraps and telling me I was wrong!)

Saying your sorry changes the situation, and allows the other person to consider your viewpoint whereas before they couldn’t hear you at all.

So true. Communication is a two way street.

One last thing. We are all baptized here. As such, we are all members of Christ’s body. Treat each other as you would Christ.

Thank you so much, patent, for this wonderful advice. How about just having a daily discussion thread instead of corrupting a thread such as this one?

I think your assessment is pretty accurate.We orthodox Catholics had much reason to hope after the scandal erupted.We hoped that the Church in the U.S. would become what it had the potential to be.Early on it seemed that if just one or two strong cardinals and five or six bishops would have taken the reins and spoken out,the slow but steady decline could have been halted and turned around.If they did we certainly did not hear or read about it,in or on,public media vehicles.

I believe most of us have seen our own bishops continue to lie and cover-up.As you pointed out the bishops meeting was a disappointment and things seem to be operating just as before causing people to lose heart.(While this may sound contradictory,there are some good signs in my own awful diocese that indicate things are getting much more orthodox.)

BTW,I feel the same way about what happened after last year's terrorist attack as I do about what is happening to the Church in America.Did our country examine itself? No.And today,one year later we are "celebrating the spirit of our resilient nation".God must be crying.

I think the fractionalizing of the Catholic Caucus is very sad.I attribute the bickering to several factors.Some people are frustrated,at times,we just misunderstand what the "other" is saying and what he means by the words he uses,others have big egos and must be right,some people are over sensitive and overreact to a real or perceived slight but most important and the reason that we need to keep together is the fact that several on these threads are professional disruptors and have sought from the beginning to fragment and divide us.When the good guys quit,the bad guys win without lifting a finger.The "bad guys" are in truth,catholic "progressives" and are probably in Call to Action or Dignity meetings when they are not on here.

I love the Pope and I think scripturely,his primacy and succession are supported beyond the slightest doubt.I also know this particular Pope was adamant about the need for a Catholic Catechism,and he won.Had he not had it printed,after Vat II no less,the "progressives" would still be telling us lies about what the Church teaches now.They hate the Catechism,even though many of them will tell you they are with Peter.Ask specific questions and you will be surprised.

I also think the Tridentine Mass is extremely important and its continuance must be supported but currently it is an issue that must not be forgotten but cannot be placed in the first priority.When one party or the other cannot put their argument to bed after three or four posts at the most,I suspect another agenda. Beware of those on either side who use too much bandwith. They do seek to get rid of us.

Finally,I am very upset that Allend is gone,he and I got into a couple of issues wherein we disagreed but he was well informed and appropriate and I would like to know why he is gone.Doesn't anyone else care?I find people who call the Admin.to have prople removed simply childish.You can learn much about men and matters in their exchanges.

For now we need to pray,keep the Faith and send a couple of letters or postcards off everyday to let the bishops and pastors know that they need to deal with the scandal. They need to figure out what to do about the homosexual problem in the priesthood and insist that their pastors,priests,teachers and staff in their "ministries" are faithful to Catholic teachingin thought,word and deed.The enemy would like very much if we gave up in despair and frustration.

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