When it comes to morality, one religion's "morality" is another religion's "immorality."

Thinktwice

[thinktwice]

When it comes to morality, one religion's "morality" is another religion's "immorality."

And that contradiction is evidence of serious flaws in religious moralities.

For me, a rational ethics -- free from religion -- is the only ethics worthy of carrying the name "moral."

Aristotle produced a simplistic rational ethics based on virtues visible in respected people, and vices visible in non-respected humans. And teaching Aristotle's non-denominational ethics in public schools would be a great idea, but ... We'd be turning out individuals with the same moral upbringing of Alexander the Great, and that wouldn't do in a socialistic world.

Even better is Ayn Rand's ethics. Her's is an ethics metaphysically based in reality and epistemologically based in reason; making it a clear and concise rational ethics that makes sense. Ayn Rand's ethics is clearly also what America's founding fathers had in mind when writing the founding documents that recognized and moved to preserve individual freedom -- the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

[Prysson]

Ah the fly in your ointment....

Religion is not GOD.

Religion is an affectation of MAN. God is God and is immutable. There may be prophets who have come and in the case of a christian you may believe from evidence that He is the Risen Lord and from that Faith a religion may be born. But the morality does not come from religion. The morality comes from GOD. Religion simply attempts in its imperfect way to give that morality verbal context.

[Prysson]

That is an additional perspective that I would also agree with. God posites a moral persepctive and we can choose to accept it or not. I would add as well though that religion does not dictate that morality. Some religions may try to dictate it..some may even vocally and adamantly insists on their right to dictate it...but it nevertheless is something that comes from GOD. The rest are arguments of men.

[thinktwice]

The world is full of people who thought that their will determined the scope and size and shape of their own morality.

Please realize that the dark ages were characterized by people that were not allowed to trust their fational faculty to define the scope and size and shape of their own morality.

Regarding your morality; what is your morality's basis, size, and shape?

[Prysson]

My God Thinktwice...

I should just tell you to go out and find out for yourself. I after all have read AYn Rand yet where is your knowledge of my perspective. Maybe you should read St Augustine, or St Abelard, St Benedict...the list goes on and on and on. Factually there are different ideas on alot of the details. There is you have to remember 2000 years of philosophers answering just that question. For me to answer it for you in any kind of concise way is next to impossible.

Ultimately you have to read. You can never find out what Christianity is if you arent one, without reading the works of the people who have helped to shape it...But reading the new testament certainly helps...though as history has shown there certainly are people who have read the bible plenty and still not really "gotten" it.

I am almost loath to answer because I can never give any kind of meaningful answer to you in the time we have. But I feel I should at least try and so I will give it to you as consicely as possible.

Christianity is built on the understanding that God is a perfect being. He is perfect in every way. He is the creator. He knows eveything and has all absolute power. His love is all encompassing. He loves every one of us completely. His love is so abounding that he would spend all of eternity with us. Were it within his power he would grant us eternal life in his kingdom. It just so happens that there is a way. He begot his only son. (and here you get into the trinity which is impossible to explain in a short concise version but that is essentially to say that God is both the Father the Son and the Holy spirit. They are all one.) So God begat his only son and this perfect being. Truely perfect and absolutley free of sin gave his life that all of our sins could be washed away. Then he conquered death and ascended into heaven, thorugh his sacrfice we are cleansed of our impurities through the blood of the lamb and through his sacrfice we are purified in spirit. It is a gift that is given freely to all who believe. And belief is the only price.

That is the essential message of Christianity. Philosophically someone who is a chrisitian and truely is filled with the holy spirit will walk in the Lords footsteps and be a good and "christlike" person. We all of us fail in that. Which is incidentaly exactly what cs lewis was saying. We are all of us imperfect beings. There is no such thing as a perfect person on earth. Only God could achieve that. But being perfect is not a requirement. Being free of sin isnt even a requirement though you should if you are a christian try to live as Christ would want you. failing that though you are forgiven your transgessions through the mercy of teh Lord "for whomsosever believeth in him shal not perish but have everlasting life"

That is very basic but that is the essentialls. There is no promise in christianity that as humans we will be perfect creatures of God. We are all of us imperfect. We all fail to attend to the word of the Lord. We Judge when we are warned to judge not. We spend far more time tending the splinter in our neighbors eye rathers than removing the mote from 0ur own...and there are plenty of us who spend a great deal of time and effort trying to detemrine who is gonna get in and who isnt and when the final days will arrive when we have all been told explicitly not to do that. But you see that is human nature and that is human failing. For all that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ drive me batty (and I am sure that I can be a royal pain) I love them. It is my personal wish that every soul be saved for I know that that is Gods wish. I fulfill his vision for me imperfectly because I am imperfect. But I nevertheless am asking for the grace that he has offered to me through his son.

Now in all of that there is no garantee that beliveing that I wont end up somehow twisting the words to mean something else. I dont know...maybe I am really evil and I claim to be a christian and then behave horribly for the purpose of driving people away from it. Maybe I am just a lunatic and I have weird delusions of grandure and decide that God has chosen me to slaughter all of the Jews. If that is the case..wel I would thorugh one of Ayn Rands own tenants out and say theirin lies a contradiction check the premise. Maybe there is something wrong with him. Maybe he isnt really a christian...or maybe he just is wrong about what he thinks a christian is.

I dont know. There are a million possible explanations. The one thing it doesnt mean though is that God is false and his message is false and all those who worship him are false. You judge the world from the actions of a few...yet your own philosophy should demand of you that you judge each person according to his own lights. You dont however. You see the Spanish Inquisition and to you that means all christians are rotten hypocrites. St Francis is a fake because of the Salem Witch trial. Joan of Arc burned at the stake and so Christians are all hypocrites and liars.
And you say you demand logic and rationale.

[thinktwice]

Post 137 ... What exaclty are you trying to say here?

I'm saying that morality does not come from God.

And in answer to your question ... "Just what real world limits are there on a moral code that has no determining factor other than someones own will?"

I will assert that ... Morals are not the product of man's will, but of his mind. "Morals" derived from will (or purported to be from God) could be highly irrational, as evident in numerous religious codes today.

And conversely, morals derived from man's mind, morals based on real world limits, morals based in reality, morals proven to be wise over time; are morals that would serve all mankind well.

[Prysson]

Wrong. The dark ages are characterized by people who completely determined their own morality. The dark ages are an actual representation of a period in history after the fall of the roman Empire when Europe was plunged into an abyss of barbarism and paganism. After some 500 years of a relatively christian world under the guidance of Rome the Christianity was virtualy wiped from the the face of europe. Barbarian hordes swpet the old Roman culture away and the "light" of knowledge and education and civilization that the world had come to know was virtually extinct." In England for example the were still discussing the Palagius Heresy (essentially Martin Luther 1000 years before his time) when the barbarian Germanic tribes swept across England. Babrarian nonchristian cultures swpet across europe ussuring in the age of Might is right.Out of that world a christian world developed slowly and laboriously and throughout the dark ages it was ONLY CHRISTIANITY that kept you precious Greeks and Romans alive. Through Chritians monastaries and enclaves were great libraries kept in relative saftey from the ravages of a barbaric people. Slowly out of that came conversionn and a new christian world was reformed. An world build an christina principles and christian philosophy. That LIGHT is what kept the world going through the dark ages. Certainly there were set back and there were certainly times when religion was more of a stumbling block that a progressive tool. Such is the case with all things of man though. That is not a "christian" affectation. You position that christianity somehow caused the dark ages is the grossest inaccurancy. And frankly I I am tiring of the argument. You continue to throw basless charges out. The most outlandish rediculous positions. They certainly sound grandeous to your mind but they are completely false. And so visibly false to anyone with a working knowledge of it that they are easily dismissed. Nevertheless you continue to throw them otu there one afterthe other.

If you wanted to have an argument with me about why you dont think god exists that would be one thing. But when you try to sprend disinformation about how christians are to blame for all the ills in the world I will not stand for that. The fact is that all of the Western World as we know stems from a jusaeo christianic cultural perspective...more chrtianic than judaeic and there is nothing you can do to avoid that fact. That we stumbled along the way goes without saying. But the Chinese emporers who had themselves buried with 40000 slaves (buried alive) are examples of how barbarism and cruelty are human failing and are certainly not relegated to christianity. In the larger scope of things I garnatee you without a doubtThat given the time I could prove to you that Christianity has a better track record that ANY FAITH SYSTEM you could name when it comes to barbaric cruelty. Certainly a better track record than atheism.

[thinktwice]

I asked ... Okay, what actually is the philosophy of christianity?

And Prysson's answer came in post 144, beginning with the words ....

Christianity is built on the understanding that God is a perfect being. He is perfect in every way. He is the creator. He knows eveything and has all absolute power. His love is all encompassing.

And later the words ... That is the essential message of Christianity. Philosophically someone who is a chrisitian and truely is filled with the holy spirit will walk in the Lords footsteps and be a good and "christlike" person.

And later the words ... There is no such thing as a perfect person on earth. Only God could achieve that.

Prysson's words describe Christian philosophy well, so I'd congratulate Prysson for presenting them; but ...

How do we know what we know about Christianlity? What is the basis for its epistemology? Answer is Christian religious writings -- C.S. Lewis for instance.

Christian metaphysics is a given: a Christian's first source of knowledge is ... God

The basis for the "goodness" definitions behind Christian ethics is altruism.

Christian esthetics, what's esthetically important to Christians is not to be found in drama, art, literature, etc; but in the afterlife. Best exemplified in my C.S. Lewis quote about man being a nasty, pride filled and dirty creature.

Christian politics -- I'd call it the politics of virtue.

How am I doing, Prysson? And would you like to see a converse review of Rand's Objectivist philosophy?

[tpaine]

But as for real world ethical lessons - they only exist if you ALREADY have an idea of what is right and wrong (a morality).
126 - yb
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Absurd statement, easily demonstrated false by our earliest 'ethical' experiences.
IE - A toddler hurts a peer, and is 'hurt' in return, either by the other child, or disciplined by an adult. -- Neither child has attained the 'age of reason' or a sense of right or wrong, yet they both soon learn a "real world ethical lesson".

-- Do harm onto others, and they will do harm onto you.

Thus, -- Moralities DO exist, irregardless of beliefs. They are a product of real world cause & effect.
We need no 'god' to tell us what common sense illustrates.

[Misterioso]

Basing a "belief" on someone else's "belief" is not rational. A person who thinks for himself would not do it.

[Misterioso]

How am I doing, Prysson? And would you like to see a converse review of Rand's Objectivist philosophy?

Well, I guess not. And aren't you surprised?

[yendu bwam]

Thus, -- Moralities DO exist, irregardless of beliefs. They are a product of real world cause & effect. We need no 'god' to tell us what common sense illustrates.

No, tpaine. What about when a kid (a bully) for an example, learns to hurt others without getting hurt in return? Stalin hurt (massacred) millions, and did quite well for himself.

[yendu bwam]

Moralities DO exist, irregardless of beliefs. They are a product of real world cause & effect. We need no 'god' to tell us what common sense illustrates.

No, moralites ARE a belief about what is right and wrong. You may think you do not need God to help you with what is right and wrong. That is your prerogative.

[yendu bwam]

Do harm onto others, and they will do harm onto you.

For many, tpaine, 'ethics' goes beyond self-protection. As an example, many people (myself included) believe abortion is morally wrong - even though the about-to-be-born fetus can't possibly rise up and smite you.

[yendu bwam]

I would argue that Christianity is completely free of those "wrinkles" There are no contradictions in Christs message.

Agreed. It's in the human application of that message that the wrinkles appear.

[yendu bwam]

[Rand's] position was based on the absolute certainty that she was right..without ever explaining WHY she would be right and someone else would be wrong....would we then have to assume she was the only rational person on the plante..everyone must agree with her or else they are an irrational idiot. That is utter nonsense.

Precisely.

[tpaine]

How weird. -- You think Stalin "did quite well for himself".
-- Sorry, but your ideas on morality are quite bizzare. Talk to your religious advisor.

[tpaine]

No, moralites ARE a belief about what is right and wrong. YB
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Absurd statement, easily demonstrated false by our earliest 'ethical' experiences.
IE - A toddler hurts a peer, and is 'hurt' in return, either by the other child, or disciplined by an adult. -- Neither child has attained the 'age of reason' or a sense of right or wrong, yet they both soon learn a "real world ethical lesson".

-- Do harm onto others, and they will do harm onto you.

Thus, -- Moralities DO exist, irregardless of beliefs. They are a product of real world cause & effect.
We need no 'god' to tell us what common sense illustrates.

[yendu bwam]

Do harm onto others, and they will do harm onto you.

Yes, yes, yes, tpaine. Only those things which ultimately cause harm to you are bad. We get the idea. You have the right to whatever morality you wish.

[yendu bwam]

How weird. -- You think Stalin "did quite well for himself". -- Sorry, but your ideas on morality are quite bizzare. Talk to your religious advisor.

The easy little point there Tpaine, was that some people do not believe hurting others is bad, and they don't get the idea that it is (as you say is common sense) in situations in which those that are harmed can't strike back. Stalin acheived all of his immense goals and more. The millions he killed never had a chance to strike back. On his own terms, he was quite successful. At the end of the day, Tpaine, you wish to establish morality from rationality, like Rand. That's a futile exercise.

[tpaine]

Absurd statement, easily demonstrated false by our earliest 'ethical' experiences.
IE - A toddler hurts a peer, and is 'hurt' in return, either by the other child, or disciplined by an adult. -- Neither child has attained the 'age of reason' or a sense of right or wrong, yet they both soon learn a "real world ethical lesson".

-- Do harm onto others, and they will do harm onto you.

Thus, -- Moralities DO exist, irregardless of beliefs. They are a product of real world cause & effect.
We need no 'god' to tell us what common sense illustrates.
_________________________________

For many, tpaine, 'ethics' goes beyond self-protection. As an example, many people (myself included) believe abortion is morally wrong - even though the about-to-be-born fetus can't possibly rise up and smite you. - YB -
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You may think you need God to help you with what is right and wrong. That is your prerogative.