Text of letter from Cardinal Medina Est vez rejecting ICEL translations

http://www.webelieve.cc/html/medinalet.htm ^ | 16 March 2002 | Jorge A. Car. Medina Estévez

[Antoninus]

Thanks for posting this, narses. We desperately need a good translation of the missal that is more faithful to the Latin and is more artfully worded. In my opinion, whoever drafted this letter should simply translate the Mass into English from the Latin and the Vatican should simply impose it upon the English-speaking world. ICEL has done enough mangling/pedestrianizing of liturgical texts throughout its history. It's time for them to go.

The translation of "Et cum spiritu tuo" as "And also with you" has become familiar in the English-speaking world, and a change in the people’s response would no doubt occasion some temporary discomfort. Nevertheless, the continuous literal translation of this response in all major liturgical traditions, whether Semitic, Greek, or Latin as well as in virtually every other modern language, constitutes a historical consensus and an imperative that can no longer be set aside.

This "translation" has always annoyed me. "And also with you" is so bland. "And with thy spirit" or something similar is simply more reverent and better conveys a sense of the sacred.

Personally, I would prefer it if the entire Canon was said in Latin (with Latin responses) while the Liturgy of the Word remains in English.

[Antoninus]

The guy doesn't like English, OK? This is inside baseball, as far as I'm concerned. Let's just stick with the English translation we've got now, as most of the American Church is familiar with it.

Sink, you're starting to sound like a conservative all the sudden (wanting to "conserve" the mediocre liturgical texts we've used for the past 30 odd years). Using your logic, we should never have changed from Latin in the first place because "most of us were familiar with it."

Naturally, I disagree completely. We need to be more progressive when it comes to getting the translations right. It is commonly agreed that the translations done in the 1960s were flawed and inaccurate. In the spirit of reform, why don't we update them to reflect the more transcendent, reverent, mysterious, and accurate view of Catholicism that so many are yearning for today?

Benedicat te Omnipotens Deus...

[ArrogantBustard]

I would prefer it if the entire Canon was said in Latin

Kyrie Eleison.

[TotusTuus]

...before ICEL would submit a serious effort.

Out of curiousity, does anybody know where the Vatican directives towards revising ICEL (a new set of statutes with a new translating team) stand at this point? I know they were given about a year or two ago.

[patent]

I don't.

[Desdemona]

"Personally, I would prefer it if the entire Canon was said in Latin (with Latin responses) while the Liturgy of the Word remains in English."

And ALL the litanies sung...(personal pet peeve)

[Antoninus]

Kyrie Eleison.

Touché. But remember, the Kyrie isn't part of the Canon...

[Catholicguy]

The "Trads" oppose Rome, The Pope, The Curia. They pride themselves on fighting modernism when in reality they are nettlesome busybodies whose speciality is private judgement, carping, caviling, criticising and opposition to divinely-constituted authority.

Your statements are false.

My statements are dead on accurate. I used to be a soi disant "trad." I KNOW the mindest. I used to subscribe to The Remnant, Catholic Family News, Catholic Reformation in the XXTh Century, Fatima Crusader, Latin Mass magazine. I have heard the arguements for YEARS. I had one foot in schism.It is all Barbara Streisand, as Limbaugh would say.

The folks who describe themselves as "Trads" do exactly what I describe them as doing. I know. My letters used to be published in some of those magazines. They are in opposition to the Pope and the Magisterium. They do not accept Vatican Two - expect as they have redefined it - and it is silly to pretend they do.

Several of these folk have signed a letter saying they oppose the Pope. This is not something a Catholic does. No, these self-designated, self-important folks give themselves a designation that sets themselves apart from the ordinary Catholic. Even worse, they denigrate those that ARE Catholic as Neo-Catholics. To be Catholic, one must be Baptised and be in UNITY in worship, doctrine and authority.

The VAST majority of those who describe themselves as "Trads" are NOT in Unity re authority and, in many cases, Doctrine (they reject D.H., for instance).

One doesn't "debate" or argue about or undermine Documents and decisions issuing from an Ecuemnical Council and call themselves "Traditionalists or Traditional Catholic" because one sign of a real Catholic is to ACCEPT, not oppose, Ecumenical councils. Good grief. Does this really need to be said?

Name a SINGLE SAINT who EVER opposed an Ecumenical council or the Documents from that Council.

ALL Catholics, by virtue of their being in UNION with the Pope and accepting of the Magisterium, are "traditionalists" but that is a tautology. The Magisterium decides what is and isn't Tradition. What is new (and "trads" are into many novelties, including the neologism "neo-catholic")is for those opposing the authority of the Pope to Baptise themselves with a qualifying adjective suggesting THEY, and not Rome, are the authority as to what is and isn't Traditional.

If it were not so twisted it would be laughable

[saradippity]

Thanks for the great post. It must be a terrible embarrassment for ICEL and the enabling bishops to be exposed for what they are. Clearly they are illiterate or ignorant or stupid or deceitful,or one,two,three or all of the preceding. They will not obey and should be thrown out into the secular world that they have supported and maintained while getting paid by Catholics,who trusted them. Well,they simply cannot be trusted to do anything but destroy the Church Christ established on earth.They need to be outed and fired or resign,bureaucrats and bishops alike.

[Mike Fieschko]

The "Trads" oppose Rome, The Pope, The Curia. They pride themselves on fighting modernism when in reality they are nettlesome busybodies whose speciality is private judgement, carping, caviling, criticising and opposition to divinely-constituted authority.

I ask you to withdraw that.

[Catholicguy]

The "Trads" oppose Rome, The Pope, The Curia. They pride themselves on fighting modernism when in reality they are nettlesome busybodies whose speciality is private judgement, carping, caviling, criticising and opposition to divinely-constituted authority.

I ask you to withdraw that.

No.

[livius]

Totally in agreement, MikeF. We've got to discuss these things and work them out - in all charity.

Many years ago, I lived and worked at the Catholic Worker, on the Bowery first and then at the farm in Tivoli. Dorothy Day was still alive and (sort of) in charge of things, although I must admit that administration was never her stong point.

Dorothy was often criticized by left and right alike for meeting with people with whom she did not agree 100%. One time, as we were driving around (I served as her driver for a while), she told me that one must always look for the things upon which one can agree, and stick to those. While perhaps a little "saintly" sounding, this was actually very practical, and I wish we'd bear it in mind.

This doesn't mean compromising on other things, it simply means that on the points that you agree on, you work together and leave the other issues until the appropriate time to discuss them. That may never arise, but in the meantime, you have at least accomplished the thing that was important to both sides. (Saintly Dorothy was actually sort of Machiavellian in her approach.)

BTW, Dorothy - who was a pacifist and a Chesterton-style distributist - was also an extremely orthodox Catholic and was very grieved by many things that were happening in the Church at that time (1970's). She was particularly upset by the behavior of the clergy, since she, as a convert, had great respect for priests. I'm glad she didn't live to see our our times.

[Dajjal]

Dittoes to #20, &c.

[Polycarp]

The Catholic Church, of course, leaves many questions open to the discussion of theologians. She does this to the extent that matters are not absolutely certain. Far from jeopardizing the Church's unity, controversies, as a noted English author, John Henry Cardinal Newman, has remarked, can actually pave the way for its attainment. For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark

Thanks for posting this. I'm going to use it in an article regarding prudential decisions of discipline in liturgy and the legitimacy of debating the merits of same.

[RobbyS]

A focus on transcendent realities in the Latin prayers too often shifts in the English prayers to a focus on the interior dispositions and desires of those who pray.

In other words, from Catholic to Protestant-like emphasis.

[Domestic Church]

"The Magisterium decides what is and isn't Tradition."

Thank you for some sanity, for a while there I felt like Alice on the other side of the looking glass. I had assumed if someone referred to the term Trad, they were supportive of Magisterial teachings and the Pope.

I'm starting to wonder if there should be a list of definitions for all these labels. Or some sort of silly multiple choice test to figure out one's nomenclature. I didn 't realize how tiered Catholicism had become. In what decade did this start?

[narses]

So any disagreement with the Pope or your Bishop takes you out of the community in your opinion? Or have I misread your statements?

[Catholicguy]

I'm starting to wonder if there should be a list of definitions for all these labels. Or some sort of silly multiple choice test to figure out one's nomenclature. I didn 't realize how tiered Catholicism had become. In what decade did this start?

When we profess the Creed, we profess "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church..." That "One" means Unity; Unity of Worship, Doctrine, Authority.

Those who refuse to accept the Authority of the Pope and those who refuse to accept the Doctrines of an Ecumenical Council (such as D.H.) really ought to remain silent during the Creed because if they profess that while acting otherwise, they are liars.

I don't know when the soi disant "Trads" began adding that to Catholic. It'd be interesting to do a nexus/lexus search and see who the first was to use it. I'd bet it was one who was in opposition to the then living Pope.

The more one learns about what the "Trads" actually believe, the more one notes their own modernism. They are neologists and they invent words like "Papolotry" and 'Neo-Catholics" to denigrate those that ARE in that tri-fold Unity. Amasing.

Years ago, there was a gentleman that wrote for "The Wanderer" that suggested the "no enemies on the right" strategy that I see appearing on this thread. I guess we are just supposed to silently suffer sustained, outrageous, insipid, destructive, abominable, sickening and schismatic attacks against the Pope, an Ecumenical Council, Papal Encyclicals, and the normative Mass just because those so destructive of Unity describe themselves as "Traditionalists." Come on...

Those that are soi disant "Trads" do NOT act that way. They do NOT focus on what UNITES them and the Pope. Their ENTIRE METIER is OPPOSITION to what they say is "Tradition." That is how they sell their fetid little periodicals. They have been toiling away for decades and their mephitic machinations are not performed with the intent to succor the Papacy.

They sign public declarations that they will not submit to the Divinely-constituted authority - and those of us who are in Union with the Pope are only supposed to focus on the things we have in common with those that refuse their obedience to the Pope? Come on...

They promote that ghastly, sick piece of pathetic trash-book called "Loveth me thou, Peter," or whatever the hell it is called, that is INTENDED to sow uncertainity about the actions of the Pope and which the Calvinists have been gleefully referencing to trash John Paul II and those of us who ARE in Union with the Pope are supposed to adopt a quietist posture towards such cacophanous calumny directed at a great and Holy Pope and focus on things we "agree" upon? Come on...

The soi disant "Trads" initiated this destructiveness. It is their DUTY to end it. The Pope has gone WAY out of his way to appease these Ecclesiastical bastards (They will not have the Pope as their father).

Were it me, I'd publicly and permanently excommunicate the entire worthless lot of them and make them do public penance before accepting them back - but, that is just me. AND, if they WERE real "Traditionalists" they'd DEMAND they be treated like the "Old Days" and before they were accepted back in Communion,they would have to submit to the same sort of Public Penances that one used to have to undergo for such pertinacious perfidy. But we all KNOW the "Trads" want it both ways. They roar when they attack then mewl when they are challenged.They will blindy rip away at the Magisterium like some rabid wolverine then whine like a tabby when they are called to task. Jejune jackanapes.

This Pope is far Holier and honourable than these "Trads" are and he will seek after these lost sheep and do whatever he can to bring them back within the Sheepgate even while they will do everything they can to injure him and his reputation as he seeks them out....

Those that want to succor such devilishness are welcome to it, but, include me out.

[Loyalist]

Ever so slowly, the nails are being hammered, one by one, into the coffin of Vatican II's liturgical reforms.

[Catholicguy]

Those that are soi disant "Trads" do NOT act that way. They do NOT focus on what UNITES them and the Pope. Their ENTIRE METIER is OPPOSITION to what they say is "Tradition."

In my haste, I forgot to rewrite this. It should read "They do NOT focus on what UNITES them and the Pope. Their ENTIRE METIER is OPPOSITION to what the The Magisterium decides is Tradition. They have their OWN lay-directed magisterium that pits Pope against Pope using selective quotes from various Encyclicals. "